.38 special/.380acp/.357 mag question

[Jerry N.]

I'm looking at carry guns and would greatly appreciate some help with understanding the rounds involved. I see guns that say 38 special or 38 special +P or 380 or .357 mag but I don't understand these rounds. It seems to me that the 357's also shoot the 38 specials (kind of like a 44 mag and a 44 spl) but how can that be when .38 does not equal .357??? I'm pretty sure I understand the 380 acp but would it shoot in a 38 special gun? .38 specials look a lot like a .357mag but are they similar in power or is the 357 a much more stout round? Is a "38" the same as a 38 special?

I'm leaning on buying a small .357 with the expectation that I can run lighter loads in it (38 special?) to practice most of the time. Unfortunately, I don't understand enough about this size round to know what I don't know and what else I might want to consider.

Any help and comments would be appreciated.

 

[robctwo]

The .380 is also known as the 9mm short. I reload, and every so often a .380 case goes through with the 9mm. The case is short. .380 holds a 95 gr bullet with less powder than my 125 gr 9mm. The .380 guns I have are blowback design, so the recoil is sharper than 9mm with Browning design. My .380s are all semi-auto.

.357 is a long .38 Special. The cases were designed to not fit in the regular .38 Specials of the day because the pressures would blow up the guns. .38 Specials fit in the .357s just fine, so a .357 is more versatile.

I reload both. The only difference in the two is that I need to move all the dies out to fit .357 or I crush the cases.

For carry I have a Bersa .380 and a S&W 638. I'm carrying the S&W more because I like the .38 Special loads and the CT laser grips. Neither one are fun to shoot a the range.

I really like the model 19, 15, and 14 for range work.

 

[NYlakesider]

The .380 is also known as the 9mm short. I reload, and every so often a .380 case goes through with the 9mm. The case is short. .380 holds a 95 gr bullet with less powder than my 125 gr 9mm. The .380 guns I have are blowback design, so the recoil is sharper than 9mm with Browning design. My .380s are all semi-auto.

.357 is a long .38 Special. The cases were designed to not fit in the regular .38 Specials of the day because the pressures would blow up the guns. .38 Specials fit in the .357s just fine, so a .357 is more versatile.

I reload both. The only difference in the two is that I need to move all the dies out to fit .357 or I crush the cases.
For carry I have a Bersa .380 and a S&W 638. I'm carrying the S&W more because I like the .38 Special loads and the CT laser grips. Neither one are fun to shoot a the range.

I really like the model 19, 15, and 14 for range work.

I used to shot a lot of all the calibers I had so I got seperate dies for 38 & 357 +44spc and 44M. Made things so much easier and quicker without having to ajust or put in spacers.

Someone always has dies for sale at the club so I got my "extra" sets when I found them at real good prices.

 

[Road Rat]

The THIRTY-EIGHT Special is actually .357" and NOT .38"

 

[Texas Star]

You need to buy some basic firearms books. I especially suggest, The Handgun, by Geoffrey Boothroyd and, Sixguns by Elmer Keith. Try Amazon.com, etc.

The .380 is designed ONLY for small autos and does not have the power of the warmer .38 Special loads. Massad Ayoob found the lead SWC-HP effective in snub .38's, used on pigs in a slaughterhouse. The .380 often failed to give humane kills. But a .380 is flatter than a revolver and smaller than many, and can be more effectively concealed by most people. Some newer .380's are very small.

The .357 Magnum is enormously versatile and one on a medium or medium-heavy frame with four-inch barrel is often touted as the ideal all-round handgun. I think it is, especially if in stainless steel.

But some are frankly too small for the power. The J-frame S&W's in .357 are only for the bold and strong of heart and hand. Recoil and muzzle blast with 357 loads is grim. The smallest .357 I'd consider is the Ruger SP-101 with three-inch barrel.You need that length of barrel or longer to get much real velocity benefit from magnum rounds and the blast and recoil are less, although still very stout in a gun that size. However, it works very well with Plus P .38 ammo. The SP-101 is a very strong little gun, if your hands can take the .357 recoil.

I suggest that you stick to a .38 Special if you want a small, concealable gun. Then add a medium-size .357 for outdoor needs and home defense. Actually, get the larger gun first and learn to shoot with it, usng .38 ammo. That's all you need most of the time, anyway, unless for familirization (sp?) and for firing at animate targets that need the added power. DO NOT LOAD .357 ROUNDS FOR INDOORS USE. The blast may damage your hearing. (You can fire them on indoor RANGES, using suitable ear protection.)

Get a Model 66 with four-inch barrel or a M-686 or Ruger GP-100 with four-inch barrels. It will be an ideal learning gun with .38 ammo and capable of taking game to at least deer and javelina under suitable circumstances, and can kill an angry bear with the right ammo and good shot placement. It's also good for alligators and pythons, if you happen to live where those are a threat, as in Florida. It is probably the top-rated manstopper of any handgun, including those more powerful.

The .357 with the capability to shoot anything from light .38 target wadcutter loads to full Magnums is very versatile, especially for the outdoorsman. But approach hotter ammo with caution, after you learn to shoot.

And start reading gun magazines and books. Welcome to this board, BTW. You'll usually get better advice here than from gun store employees.

 

[badge 851]

I'm looking at carry guns and would greatly appreciate some help with understanding the rounds involved. I see guns that say 38 special or 38 special +P or 380 or .357 mag but I don't understand these rounds. It seems to me that the 357's also shoot the 38 specials (kind of like a 44 mag and a 44 spl) but how can that be when .38 does not equal .357??? I'm pretty sure I understand the 380 acp but would it shoot in a 38 special gun? .38 specials look a lot like a .357mag but are they similar in power or is the 357 a much more stout round? Is a "38" the same as a 38 special?

I'm leaning on buying a small .357 with the expectation that I can run lighter loads in it (38 special?) to practice most of the time. Unfortunately, I don't understand enough about this size round to know what I don't know and what else I might want to consider.

Any help and comments would be appreciated.

380ACP and 9mm bullets are .355" diameter. The 9mm is 9x19mm (diameter, & length), a 380ACP is 9x17mm, aka 9mm Corto, or 9mm Kurtz which both mean 9mm Short. Both are rimless cartridges and head space on the forward edge or "lip" of the cartridge. Because of this you cannot fire a 380ACP cartridge in a 9mm chambered semi automatic pistol. (You can fire a 380ACP in a 9mm revolver however as the cartridges are placed in moon clips that create a rim on which to head space.) 380ACP ammunition bullets are 90-102grs, while 9mm ammunition bullets are typically 115, 124, and 147 grains. Because the 9mm case is 2mm longer than a 380 case; it can hold more gunpowder, and, also accommodate longer, heavier bullets.

38 Special and 357 Magnum cartridges are .357" in diameter. A 38 Special case is approximately 1.145" long, and a 357 Magnum measures about 1.280". Both cartridges are rimmed and thus head space on the rim, same as a 30/30 Winchester®, 22lr, or shotgun ammunition. Because of this any 38 Special cartridge can be fired in a 357 Magnum revolver. You cannot however fire a 357 Magnum cartridge in a 38 Special revolver. The cartridge is too long and thus will not chamber correctly. 38 Special ammunition is typically available in 110, 125, 130, 135, 148, and 158gr bullets. 357 Magnum ammunition is loaded with 110, 125, 135, 140, 145, 158, and 180gr bullets. 38, and 38 Special is a ubiquitous term. Originally upon its introduction in 1899 (black powder), & 1902 (smokeless powder); the cartridge was called the 38 Smith & Wesson® Special. Now days if anyone says 38 or 38 Special it means this cartridge.

Of the four calibers you cite; the 357 Magnum is the most versatile and the most powerful. What will you use the gun for, home defense, concealed carry, or both? If strictly for home defense and range use, a 4-6" barrel will be superb. If for concealed carry however, you will be better served with a snub nose 1⅞-2½" barrel revolver. With the shorter barrel length the gun will be easier to conceal, and also faster to draw.

 

[WR Moore]

In addition to the above information, you should be aware that the ability to fire accurately and quickly (as in defensive use) drops once you get above the recoil level generally shown by the .38 Spl and 9x19mm cartriges. Yes, if you are dedicated enough to remain very fit and very practiced, you can handle more recoil, but you'll always be able to fire faster and more accurately with ammunition with less recoil.

Remember, the measure of your ability is not with two hands on the weapon on a nice sunny day. It's with one hand, because the other may be otherwise occupied (trying to close the front door, controlling a hysterical family member, etc.), under circumstances of some others choosing. Where you put the bullet is far more important that its diameter, velocity, construction or alleged performance in simulated tissue.

The .357 revolver, in appropriate sizes, is probably the most versatile handgun on the planet. Just because someone makes a .357 smaller and lighter than a double burger, doesn't mean buying or firing it is a good idea.

BTW, since no one mentioned .38 +P. As previously noted, the .38 Special cartridge was developed over a century ago, using black powder. The +P rating operates at a slightly higher pressure made possible by better materials since then. It does develop slightly more energy and recoil than standard pressure .38.

 

[scooter123]

Some additional information that may help with an answer.

First, the 380 ACP and 9mm Parabellum are basically semi automatic handgun calibers and their use in a revolver is relatively rare. Bullet diameter for both of these cartridges is 0.355 inch with the 380 ACP typically using a smaller and lighter bullet than the 9mm Parabellum.

The 38 spl. and 357 Magnum are both cartridges that were originally developed for use in revolvers and the use of these cartridges in a semi automatic handgun is rare.

One notable difference between the 9mm and 38/357 caliber ammunitions is the bullet weights used. Typically, the 380 ACP and 9mm Parabellum use bullets that would be considered "light" at a higher velocity. Typically, this means a 115 gn bullet for the 9mm Parabellum traveling at about 1000-1100 fps. Contrast that with the traditional loading for the 38 spl. with a 158 gn bullet traveling at about 750 fps.

Now about Energy levels, which do have a somewhat direct effect on the perceived recoil. However, handgun type and mass also can have a significant effect on the perceived recoil.

First up is the 38 spl. and 380 ACP which share similar levels of Muzzle Energy in the region of 200 ft.lbs. This is an energy level where you cannot expect to see a devastating effect with a peripheral hit or a hit to the body, so shot placement can be rather critical.

Next up is what is called the 38 +P. This is a 38 spl. that is loaded to a slightly higher pressure than the 38 spl. Energy level for this load is normally in the range of 250 ft.lbs. but there are a couple of loads advertized as 38 +P that are listed at over 400 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy. Personally, I suspect that these 400 ft.lbs. loads are NOT really operating at +P pressures but at levels consistant with the 38/44 wildcat loadings that led to the 357 Magnum in 1935.

Next up is the 9mm Parabellum. Energy level for the standard 9mm Parabellum run in the region of 300 ft.lbs. This is an energy level that has proven to be fairly effective while at the same time having recoil that is easy for most shooters to control. There are also +P variants of the 9mm Parabellum that generate up to about 450 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy with recoil that is a bit snappy but still controllable for most.

Finally there is the 357 Magnum, the very first of the Magnums. Today some consider it a rather puny caliber because when compared to the larger 44, 460, and 500 Magnums it is a bit puny. However, when you compare it's potential 750 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy is rather dominating when compared to most of the semi auto calibers. It also has a recoil that can be distinctly "Stiff" in a medium or heavy revolver and painful in a lighter pocket revolver. In addition the 357 Magnum can be a distinctly LOUD shooting round. Personally, I think the 357 Magnum is a terrible choice for self defense. It's too loud and too difficult to shoot well with in rapid fire. Basically, it's too much of a good thing. However, there are some who think the 357 Magnum is perfect.

Since you are looking for a carry caliber I would suggest that you do what I did 4 years ago. That is find a range that offers a good selection of rentals and try out what you think might work for you. That's the best way to end up with a gun that works well for you.

 

[Bullzaye]

One thing that no one has addressed yet is the seeming incongruity of the .38 Special actually being .357 in diameter. The original .38 Special used a heel-type bullet, much like current .22 LR cartridges, where the outside diameter of the bullet was the same as the outside diameter of the shellcasing, and the bullet had a reduced diameter "heel" that fit inside the casing. When they changed it to the "standard" configuration as it is today, the ".38" moniker was retained.

It's not really all that surprising if you ever look into the actual dimensions of many other cartridges...a lot of cartridges aren't really the caliber that the name would seem to indicate,

Tim

 

[Jerry N.]

Thanks for the help with understanding this size round. Very good information and very much appreciated.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The .38 Special has a SAAMI pressure limit of 17,000 psi
The .38 Special +P has a SAAMI pressure limit of 20,000 psi.
The .357 Magnum has a SAAMI pressure limit of 35,000 psi.

.38 Special ammo will fire just fine in a .357 Magnum revolver but not the other way around. Most .38 Special +P ammo is not much "warmer" than standard pressure .38 Special ammo.

Like said above, the .380 Auto or .380 ACP is a short 9mm round and is sometimes called that. It's normally used in a semi-auto pistol. IMO it's a little on the weak side when it comes to energy but can still be used for SD.

 

[Leftofcentre67]

From experience at an indoor range firing a 4.2" GP141 (Sorry folks, I couldn't afford a Smith at the time).

.38 Special is accurate as hell, has little if any recoil, and is a very useful round. When I fire .357 Magnum, I tend to flinch a little (Something I'm working on) and there's a BIG BOOM, and some flame. It's a fun round, but really it's overkill in most settings. If I shot an intruder in my apartment with .357 I'd probably go through the intruder, and into my neighbours apartment. .38 Special would do the job nicely.

Once again it depends on what your needs are. .357 Magnum revolvers are great, reliable, and flexible in being able to fire .38 Special, .38+P, and .357 Magnum loads. You can also pick up a Marlin or equivalent lever action rifle and now you have one type of ammo for both.