.38 Special "FBI" load

[Paul5388]

The Speer#8 manual does not give 38/44 data per se.

Look at the Rem 158 gr HiSp at an advertised 1090 fps. That is certainly a .38-44 load, even though they clocked it at 1025 fps.

The 13.5 grains of 2400 charge works equally well for the S&W, Colt and Ruger .357 Magnums. With the old short cylinder S&W model 27 and 28, you can use 14.0 grains of 2400 behind the 173 grain Keith bullet...

The only guns he says to "try" the 13.5 gr .38 load in are N frame .38s (that's the .45 frame and .44 frame prior to that), the two Colt models and .357s. That doesn't mean they are duplications of .38-44 loads, just that they can be used in a .38-44.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Paul,

Apparently your perception of 38/44 ballistics is a bit milder than mine.At any rate,I never stated that Keith's suggested load was a "duplication".

I really don't care to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.Let's just drop it.

 

[Paul5388]

Keith's 38/44 handload was the following

38 special case
lyman 358429 swc (his design)...crimped in the crimp groove
13.5 gr of 2400

There's a lot of difference in "recommended" and "suggested" or even "try", so it isn't an argument. It's a fact that Elmer never mentioned .38-44 or even .44 in that .38 Special section. There's also mention of the load being used with 3 bullets, not just the 358429.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I did some work on replicating the "FBI Load" and punched it up a little for a short barrel revolver.

***Warning***
This load is over specs in some but not all reloading data sources. Use at your own risk and check the data for yourself before you use it. Lyman #49 lists this load within pressure limits.

My FBI Load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 --- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV -- 888.9
955.1 -- H --- 897.1
905.4 -- L --- 876.6
49.7 --- ES --- 20.5
20.7 --- SD --- 7.9 < Look at this
17.0 --- AD --- 5.9 < And this!

I used a Magnum primer because HS-6 is fairly hard to ignite and the SD numbers shrunk considerable when I used a Magnum primer instead of a standard primer. Many of the older manuals recommended the use of a Magnum primer with HS-5, HS-6 and HS-7. (only HS-6 is still available except for a few leftover HS-7 jugs)

 

[Hoptob]

Great information. Thank you, Tony.

At what point would it qualify as a .38-44 load?

As I understand it "38-44" is not a caliber standard like .38 special is. It's rather a reference to particular factory load (or several factory loads to be precise) which were manufactured over the years for use in heavy frame revolvers chambered in .38 special. They were loaded to certain pressure level but there is no spec to the effect that max pressure level for 38-44 is X psi. It's rather whatever the manufacturers felt was right for the guns they were intended for. From that end it is similar to .38S&W vs. 38-200. One is the caliber definition, another is the name of a particular load, even though people often use them interchangeably.

In other words, we can talk about ballistics of 38-44 factory loads, we can try to duplicate it in our handloads, but we can't say "this handload is within 38-44 limits" because the limits were never defined.

Just my 2c worth.

Mike

 

[Paul5388]

From "Sixguns", page 45

The little Chiefs Special has the new short action and the Centennial has an entirely new coil spring action, entirely double action. The Chiefs Special can be cocked and fired single action and is very accurate for its extremely light weight. Both arms are five-shot and both chambered for the .38 Special cartridge and while S. & W. do not advertise the fact, both guns will perfectly handle the .38/44 and other high speed ammunition in .38 Special. We recently made a test run of 500 rounds of this high speed ammunition through each of these guns with no ill effects we could detect either visually or by careful measurement of cylinders and rear ends of the barrels. (emphasis added)

On page 64, Elmer further defines those "high speed" loads to include "super police" loads.

These are true pocket guns – all capable of handling the various high speed and super police loads in .38 Special.

On page 65, we find another reference, that pretty well has to find agreement with what Mike said about there being no specifications for the various "high speed" loads.

This five-shot feature of these little guns enables them to handle heavy loads because the bolt-cuts do not come over the center of a chamber as is true of all six-shot weapons. Rather, the bolt-cut, or indent, is between the charge-holes on these five-shot weapons. This feature allows full thickness of chamber metal over the cartridge case and the little guns will handle High Speed .38 Special ammunition perfectly in spite of their very light weight.

So, Elmer was referring to the same ammunition when he said ".34/44", "high speed" or "super police". All of this is in the context of using those loads in the Chief's Special, Centennial, Colt Cobra and "The Smith & Wesson 2 inch barrel, round butt Military and Police model may be added to this list."

 

[Homie]

The Super Police load is the 200 gr factory load, not a .38-44 HV load.

For an "Elmer" reference, see SIXGUN CARTRIDGES and LOADS, p.26.

Good shooting.

 

[Paul5388]

The Super Police load is the 200 gr factory load, not a .38-44 HV load.

You're right Homie, my mistake.

 

[Hoptob]

Paul,

You are correct but maybe I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. All I am saying is that 38-44 is a load name, not a caliber definition. Same as "HiVel", "Super Police", "38-200" and so on. So it is impossible to answer the question "when a load qualifies to be called 38-44" because there are no accepted specs for 38-44.

Mike

 

[Paul5388]

In the last 40+ years, I have never seen a .38/44 as an offering by any major ammunition company. They have normally been called "Hi Speed", "Hi Velocity" or something akin to that. I think there are some .38/44s that are head stamped as such, but they date back further.

The only real criteria we have for the load typified as a .38/44 is one that is advertised as producing about 1100 fps with a 158 gr bullet.

According to Phil Sharpe, page 409 of the "Complete Guide to Handloading", 6.0 gr of Unique, with a factory 158 gr lead bullet and a seating depth of .273", produces 1076 fps at 18.500 cup. If you increase that to 6.6 gr of Unique the velocity goes up to 1130 fps at 20,900 cup. The lower load is within the cup specs for .38 Special (18,900) and the heavier load is within cup specs for +P (22,400).

Other than that, I don't know of any place to get pressure data for anything resembling a .38/44 load.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Paul,

On reflection,perhaps I made an incorrect assumption based on the following.The N frame 38 special was normally referred to as the 38/44.I can remember many times that Keith suggested the load I referred to when handloading for the N frame 38 special.Perhaps he did not actually write the term 38/44.I do recall that he most often referred to his bullet (358429)when discussing the 38 or 357.It was his preference and therefore stood out in my mind more.

What constitutes 38/44 ballistics?I actually don't know.I had been under the impression that ballistics a bit closer to 1200fps or so from long barrels was more like it but perhaps not.I've never really investigated the matter because it wasn't important to me.The term 38/44 is pretty outdated now anyway.

 

[Paul5388]

The term 38/44 is pretty outdated now anyway.

I don't believe the .38/44 in it's two manifestations has been cataloged since the early to middle 1960s, so yes, it's outdated.

I did see one for sale not too long ago, but thought the price was a little high at $500.

The 160 gr hollow point version of the 358429 is the other most commonly referenced bullet by Keith.

It may be a moot point, but the designation .38/44 can only refer to a S&W. That would leave the Colt New Service and SAA out, but they certainly should be included and probably are under the Hi Speed and etc. category.

 

[John P.]

When I was duplicating the FBI load I was using 5.2 grains of Unique with the Hornady 158 Gr. LSWC-HP. I also had a load using 231 that I liked better than Unique, as it was less "smokey," but I can't seem to find my old notes. If I do I'll post. BTW- I was using a 2.5 inch M-66, both loads were very accurate. I was once told that the Winchester factory powder for their FBI load was very close to 231.. Good luck it's a great load; I still carry it in my 637.