38 Special- Power Pistol any good?

[rustypigeon]

I am looking for a powder for 38 special that is not as position sensitive as W231. I get about 70 fps difference in velocity with muzzle up/down changes.

Is power pistol any good. I noticed it has a higher charge weight so maybe less air space in the case.

 

[RidgwayCO]

I use 158gr cast and swaged lead bullets in the .38 Special loaded to standard SAAMI and +P pressures. Power Pistol works well for these loads, but with lots of muzzle flash.

Speer #14 has data for their 158gr swaged lead bullets that shows Power Pistol as producing the second highest velocity in standard .38 Special (5.4gr giving 948 fps from a S&W Model 14 with a 6" barrel). In .38 Special +P, Power Pistol produced their highest observed velocity (6.0gr giving 1037fps from the same revolver). Be advised that Power Pistol will usually fill more than 50% of the case space available when a 158gr bullet is seated, and I've never noted any position sensitivity. Remember: start 10% below the maximum and work up slowly, looking for pressure signs in your guns.

Also, for the .38 Special both Speer and SAAMI use a 17,000 psi maximum. But for +P, Speer uses a maximum 20,000 psi, while SAAMI calls for 18,500 psi. Why the difference? I have no idea...

So to (finally) answer your question, "Yes, Power Pistol is useful in .38 Special."

 

[bluetopper]

Bullseye and the 38Spl. have been a tandem unexcelled for 100 years. It doesn't take up much case space, but it's not position sensitive and none more accurate.

Power Pistol comes into its own in small cased, high pressure pistol calibers. 9mm, 40,10mm,etc,....

 

[Steve C]

The only powder I know of that is advertised as position insensitive is Tight Group.

You must be loading a fairly light load with W231 to see that much difference win velocity. I load 158gr swagged Speer or Hanady lead bullet with 4.5 to 4.7grs of W231 and have found no statistical difference in velocity between powder forward or back.

 

[Treeman]

Power Pistol not only gives top velocities in .38 special (amongst current data)it also tends to render fairly low standard deviation. Useful powder.

 

[rustypigeon]

I load 158gr swagged Speer or Hanady lead bullet with 4.5 to 4.7grs of W231 and have found no statistical difference in velocity between powder forward or back.

I just tested that very same load a couple days ago. I used Speer 158gr LSWCHP and 4.7 grains of W231. I got an avg of 914 fps with the powder in the back, and 831 fps with powder forward.

 

[Erich]

As I've commented here before, I use Power Pistol for my practice .38 Special _+P loads, loving the consistency of the results it give and its easy-metering nature. It is flashy, though, so I don't use it in carry loads. I really love Power Pistol in the .38 Special.

 

[rustypigeon]

I bought a pound of Power Pistol yesterday. I'll load some Speer 158 LSWCHP and some 140 Rem JHP with it and test the position sensitivity and accuracy. I won't be able to shoot till next week, but I'll report back.

Speer is the only manual I have that shows any Power Pistol loads in 38 Spl. It seems to be a good powder based on the Speer manual, but no other manuals seem to list it. The data on the Alliant website is just an exact copy of the Speer data.

Some powders, such as Tight Group and 700x seem to leave a stain on the brass that can't be removed with the tumbler. Is Power Pistol one of these "staining" powders?

 

[RidgwayCO]

I've noted Titegroup's "staining" properties as well. I've read that it's due to Titegroup's very hot burning (also not good for lead bullet bases). I've never observed this behavior with Power Pistol.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I haven't found W231 to be at all position sensitive.

Power Pistol is slower than W231 and IMO better suited for .38 Special +P loads than standard pressure .38 Specials.

If you are looking for a good powder for the .38 Special other than W231 give AA#5 a try. I've used it with good success but I always seen to come back to W231.

 

[HKSmith]

I use 158gr cast and swaged lead bullets in the .38 Special loaded to standard SAAMI and +P pressures. Power Pistol works well for these loads, but with lots of muzzle flash.

Speer #14 has data for their 158gr swaged lead bullets that shows Power Pistol as producing the second highest velocity in standard .38 Special (5.4gr giving 948 fps from a S&W Model 14 with a 6" barrel). In .38 Special +P, Power Pistol produced their highest observed velocity (6.0gr giving 1037fps from the same revolver). Be advised that Power Pistol will usually fill more than 50% of the case space available when a 158gr bullet is seated, and I've never noted any position sensitivity. Remember: start 10% below the maximum and work up slowly, looking for pressure signs in your guns.

Also, for the .38 Special both Speer and SAAMI use a 17,000 psi maximum. But for +P, Speer uses a maximum 20,000 psi, while SAAMI calls for 18,500 psi. Why the difference? I have no idea...

So to (finally) answer your question, "Yes, Power Pistol is useful in .38 Special."

SAAMI increased its pressure standard for .38 Special +P to 20,000 psi a few years ago.

Although your advice to work up to maximum loads is good, I've never been convinced that there are useful pressure signs to watch for in these low pressure cartridges. If you're referring to primer flattening and sticky extraction, these usually occur at pressures well above 40,000 psi and are dependent on primer type and chamber condition. Unfortunately, if your nominal 20,000 psi loads were developing 30,000 psi in your gun, I don't think you would know it.

 

[RidgwayCO]

HKSmith, thank you for the information about SAAMI changing the maximum average pressure for the .38 Special. I knew that Speer was using 20k for their +P loads, but everything I'd read previously said 18.5k. I am surprised SAAMI actually upped a maximum average pressure... I didn't think they were in the habit of doing that.

I guess my caution to "look for pressure signs in your guns" when working up loads is a bit of "boiler-plate CYA" on my part. How would you recommend people work up loads in low pressure rounds like the .38 Special and .44 Special? Personally I use reloading manuals crosschecked with QuickLOAD, but I'm always interested in learning something new.

 

[Treeman]

I "work up " loads by miking case expansion forward of the web. This procedure is explained very thoroughly by Ken Waters in the introduction to his "Pet Loads" books. Please note that this is different that measuring case head expansion as some loaders do for high pressure rifle rounds and works at any pressure level. It is quite simple-you measure the maximum diameter of the case body of a fired case and compare it to other cases fired in the same chamber (using a micrometer reading to .0001). Critics say that this is not a reliable measure of pressures.....and I agree that it gives no reading in CUP or PSI but for those of us who use it the system yields more info than any other "pressure signs" method. The degree of obturation of the case DOES change as charges are increased. No absolute pressure figures are revealed but relative pressures show up quite clearly-In fact it is often possible to correlate the case from any particular shot with said shot yielding a high velocity deviation within a string. If you establish a baseline with factory rounds or a known well proven safe handload them it is possible to say with some certainty that a load in development is yielding lesser, similar or greater pressures than the established baseline. I do of course try to use published loads and seldom do I exceed them(though there are plenty where I will exceed one data source having found that another source with higher published charge levels is usable in my guns without exceeding my baseline case measurement "pressure reading").

 

[Treeman]

BTW, To my limited and imperfect knowlege SAAMI lowered the .38 spl +P standard from 20k PSI to 18.5k PSI. If it was raised back to 20k I'm glad and would like to see documentation. The drop to 18.5k was ridiculous.

 

[HKSmith]

BTW, To my limited and imperfect knowlege SAAMI lowered the .38 spl +P standard from 20k PSI to 18.5k PSI. If it was raised back to 20k I'm glad and would like to see documentation. The drop to 18.5k was ridiculous.

When I wrote my first post, I was certain I'd read about an increase to 20,000 psi for .38 Special +P, so I tried to find a definitive source. The SAAMI website is no help as they only allow access to their data for SAAMI members. Several other sites are easily found that list tables of SAAMI pressures, but some of them give 18,500 psi and some give 20,000 psi.

I then checked 3 Speer Manuals:

Speer #12, published 1994, gives 18,500 psi.
Speer #13, published 1998, gives 20,000 psi.
Speer #14, published 2007, gives 20,000 psi.

This would suggest an increase to 20,000 psi between 1994 and 1998. Interestingly, most of the .38 Special +P data hasn't changed in these manuals over a 13 year period! Although some powders and bullets have been added or deleted, most of the maximum loads and velocities are identical in the 3 manuals and don't reflect a redo of the data to reflect an increase in SAAMI maximum pressure.

The current Hornady manual (#7) doesn't list pressures at all.

The 3rd Edition Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook doesn't list SAAMI pressures, but it does report pressure data for some of its loads. The highest pressure listed for a .38 Special +P load is 19,800 cup (not psi), but all the others are close to 18,500 cup.

The 2003 Hodgdon Basic Manual lists .38 Special +P loads going up to 19,800 cup.

And finally, the Ramshot (Western) Powder website lists 18,500 psi as the SAAMI maximum.

My conclusion from all this is that I can't cite a definitive source for my opinion. I'll try contacting Speer to get an answer to this question. Also, I believe Hornady and RCBS answer questions on reloading either by phone or on the web.

 

[Treeman]

Thanks for your research. Interesting about Speer#12-somehow I missed that one and thought that the 38+P got cut sometime recently. I have manuals that are all ove rthe place regarding stated limits.......but the loads where pressures are listed are remarkably consistent in data-varying only small amounts for a given bullet weight.......and, where specific numbers are given, all falling under the 18.5k max average.

 

[HKSmith]

I spoke with someone at Speer/CCI yesterday and was told that current SAAMI pressure for .38 Special +P is 20,000 psi. They thought the increase from 18,500 psi took place about 10 years ago.

 

[Treeman]

-Thanks. That fits with the manuals you referenced.............so it appears that SAAMI dropped the standard for 38+P from 22,400 CUP to 18,500 PSI and then did a cranio rectal extraction and bumped things back up to 20,000 PSI.

 

[dogdoc]

-Thanks. That fits with the manuals you referenced.............so it appears that SAAMI dropped the standard for 38+P from 22,400 CUP to 18,500 PSI and then did a cranio rectal extraction and bumped things back up to 20,000 PSI.

Except i do not think cup and psi are directly convertable and therefore not comparable.