44 mag vs special and the fixed sight gun

[s2harry]

this pertains to adjustable sights as well really.....I see on here and the ruger forum and on pics anywhere on the net people saying you can shoot 44 mag and 44 specials in any 44 mag gun. Hmmm the idea is 44 spec for practice 44 mag for the woods dangerous game etc. My problem is factory 240 mags shoot one foot low 44 spec one foot high in my Vaquero at say 25 yards. So how is it you can shoot 44 spec for practice when its a foot high? I don't have a adjustable sight gun to see if there is enough sight travel to shoot mags and specials out the same gun but I doubt the sights got the travel to work in say a Mod 29. In a small Tarus (gag) 5 shot gun its got to be worse. The Vaquero shoots 300gr Laser cast with 13 gr AA#7 using the original front sight. Its dead on at 50-60 feet and about 1050fps. So how do you guys handle that problem?

 

[crsides]

I don't do it, but here's some points to consider.

The shorter the sight radius (distance between front and rear sights) the more impact at target a click of the sights will have, all other things being equal.

A lighter bullet will shoot lower than a heavier bullet, all other things being equal.

A bullet at higher velocity (less time in the barrel that is recoiling upward) will shoot lower than a slower bullet, all other things being equal. I haven't tried this, but it has been suggested before.

You need to test these with your gun and your ammo, but you can change the impact of your bullet by varying the parameters.


Charlie

 

[s2harry]

yeah Charlie I tried to file the sight on the vaquero and even though going slow screwed it up so its got a new sight. i just dont think you can adjust a mod 29 that much to shoot both can you?

 

[Paul5388]

If you look at a slow motion video of a handgun being shot, you'll notice the bullet is long gone out of the barrel before there is any upward recoil. That would indicate a lighter bullet at the same velocity should impact at the same place as a heavier bullet. I haven't actually tried that scenario, but I can assure you barrel time is not the reason, as I used to think, for light bullets shooting higher.

45 ACP Revolver vs Pistol Recoil Slow Motion - YouTube

 

[Forrest r]

A lighter bullet & then play with the speeds of the lighter bullet. It's a common practice to do with 9mm's & fixed sights.

I've done the same thing with 44spl bulldogs that I've owned in the past along with s&w 29's.

A 300g bullet in the mag gives you a ton of wiggle room for light bullets in the spl. Try some bullets in the 180-215g range, they should get you there.

You could actually do the same thing with mag cases, light loads & light bullets, that will save you from buying new brass.

Were you loading those 300g bullets in 44spl cases?

 

[keithherrington]

If you look at a slow motion video of a handgun being shot, you'll notice the bullet is long gone out of the barrel before there is any upward recoil. That would indicate a lighter bullet at the same velocity should impact at the same place as a heavier bullet. I haven't actually tried that scenario, but I can assure you barrel time is not the reason, as I used to think, for light bullets shooting higher.

45 ACP Revolver vs Pistol Recoil Slow Motion - YouTube

Paul,
While the video you reference is interesting, it in fact does not support your premise at all. If it were shot at 60,000fps against a grid background where you could actually measure what you claim then it might be compelling, but it still would not explain real world results.

The dynamics of a pistol's recoil differ significantly from that of a shoulder fired weapon, rifle or shotgun. If you draw a line from rear sight to front sight and extend that line to the target, then draw a line through the center of the bore and extend that down range you'll notice that on any pistol, even a 22, the bore line points significantly below the sight line. That's why companies like Freedom Arms sells front sights of various heights. For example, when I bought my 475 Linebaugh from them I had to go to a taller front sight to center the group so I could shoot 420grain mid-range loads. Why? Because of what is called dwell time. All other things being equal, the bullet on this load spends more time in the barrel, than a load that uses a lighter but faster bullet, and the gun has more time to rotate around it's pivot point in your firing hand. By the time that load leaves the barrel the gun is pointing ever so slightly higher and thus prints higher. The taller front sight compensates for this.

However Paul, to support your point, all other things are never equal. Most of my guns are fixed sight big bore guns and one of the ways I "sight" my guns in is through hand loading. Various loads (bullet weights, powder charges, powder types) will print differently, even with the same weight bullet and approximate velocity. I experiment with various loads until I get the group printing where I want with a load that performs within my set parameters. Pretty illustrative of what the original post was talking about.

To "solve" this problem, what I've done in the past is load a heavier bullet in the 44 Special and a lighter bullet in the 44 Mag, pushing both to velocities that give me the performance I want. I can then fine tune the loads to get them somewhat to the same point of aim...if I'm patient enough. But since I'm not normally that patient, I usually develop one load for each of my guns and leave it at that.
Keith

 

[Titegroups]

In theory there is no difference between practice and theory but in practice there is.

 

[Paul5388]

Maybe this video is a little more compelling?
Firearm cycling slow motion / ciclo das armas camera lenta - YouTube

 

[keithherrington]

Maybe this video is a little more compelling?
Firearm cycling slow motion / ciclo das armas camera lenta - YouTube

Sorry, Paul. Not really and for the reasons described above. Laws of physics just don't back up your premise.
Keith

 

[Paul5388]

Well, considering all semi-autos are designed to only allow bolt movement after the bullet leaves the barrel and reduces pressure, I think your physics may need a little adjustment. There's also a matter of mass that has to overcome inertia before there is any actual movement, as in blow back semi-autos and just in general for a 1-4 pound gun.

 

[Sevastopol]

If you look at a slow motion video of a handgun being shot, you'll notice the bullet is long gone out of the barrel before there is any upward recoil. That would indicate a lighter bullet at the same velocity should impact at the same place as a heavier bullet. I haven't actually tried that scenario, but I can assure you barrel time is not the reason, as I used to think, for light bullets shooting higher.

45 ACP Revolver vs Pistol Recoil Slow Motion - YouTube

I'm going to need a slow motion video of that slow motion video, because I couldn't tell.

 

[Alk8944]

Well, considering all semi-autos are designed to only allow bolt movement after the bullet leaves the barrel and reduces pressure, I think your physics may need a little adjustment. There's also a matter of mass that has to overcome inertia before there is any actual movement, as in blow back semi-autos and just in general for a 1-4 pound gun.

Paul,

No matter how long/hard you beat a dead horse it is still dead! Regardless of what your videos seem to show. it just isn't so. You can easily see this for yourself if you have a revolver on hand. Makes no difference what caliber or make you will see exactly the same thing, albeit heavier calibers will be more exaggerated.

Simply lay a straight-edge over the sights and look at the gun from the side. What you will see is the barrel points down at an angle from the sight line. In other words, the barrel is pointing at a place significantly lower than the sights when sighted on a target! If there was no upward movement of the barrel before the bullet exited how do you explain that the bullet can hit at the point-of-aim when at the moment the hammer drops the barrel is pointed sometimes as much as 2 feet below the line-of-sight at 25 yards?

If this were not true then neither bullet weight nor velocity would have any noticeable effect on point-of-impact vs. point-of-aim at any reasonable distance

If you continue to hold fast to your initial assertion we will have to assume you are of the ilk who simply refuses "to be confused by facts"!

Exactly the same thing applies to semi-automatic pistols but it is more difficult to see as the angle of the bore is concealed within the slide.

 

[Titegroups]

On a autoloader you could say it takes force to drive the slide backwards to unlock the barrel and that would create recoil. It would be interesting to compare revolvers and autoloaders to see if there are any differences.

 

[keithherrington]

On a autoloader you could say it takes force to drive the slide backwards to unlock the barrel and that would create recoil. It would be interesting to compare revolvers and autoloaders to see if there are any differences.

Good observation. I shoot revolvers and 1911s in bullseye, often in the same day. I can feel a very noticeable recoil pulse from the slide of the 1911 giving the gun a distinctly different feel from the Model 14 I shoot at the end of the day. Both have about the same overall recoil but the revolver has a very "clean" pop of recoil in the palm of my hand. The 1911 has a soft initial push followed immediately by a harder and heavier hit to my hand when the slide hits the buffer at the end of its travel. There is a third pulse when the slide rams the next round into the chamber but very soft in comparison to the other two.

The best comparison using the same ammo is between my 1911 and my 5" 625 Model 1989 with the full lug barrel. Both guns have about the same heft, but he recoil of the revolver, even though heavier, is easier to manage because its very short in duration and straight back into the hand. Muzzle rise is also less and the followup shot is much easier even though I shoot double action.

Keith

 

[Paul5388]

It isn't a matter of beating a dead horse, because you know perfectly well the same bullets with different powders will place the POI in a different place. Did the sights change to accomplish that? Is it just velocity that changes things?

A straight edge doesn't tell you anything, try using a level and see if you get the same results, like this:

The dowel in the barrel has the same gap between it and the level its entire length.

 

[Hondo44]

You must be looking at a different photo then the one you posted. Try measuring the gap, the difference is evident even with the naked eye.

 

[Hondo44]

this pertains to adjustable sights as well really.....I see on here and the ruger forum and on pics anywhere on the net people saying you can shoot 44 mag and 44 specials in any 44 mag gun. Hmmm the idea is 44 spec for practice 44 mag for the woods dangerous game etc. My problem is factory 240 mags shoot one foot low 44 spec one foot high in my Vaquero at say 25 yards. So how is it you can shoot 44 spec for practice when its a foot high? I don't have a adjustable sight gun to see if there is enough sight travel to shoot mags and specials out the same gun but I doubt the sights got the travel to work in say a Mod 29. In a small Tarus (gag) 5 shot gun its got to be worse. The Vaquero shoots 300gr Laser cast with 13 gr AA#7 using the original front sight. Its dead on at 50-60 feet and about 1050fps. So how do you guys handle that problem?

There's a simple answer. There's no point in trying to adjust the sights everytime you swith ammo. The point of impact when practicing w/44 Spl. is irrelevant. You only need to be concerned about the group size no matter how high or low it is.

 

[Paul5388]

I did measure the gap, that's why I said it was the same 1" all the way the length of the dowel. You're just seeing an optical illusion from the differences in the background.

 

[Titegroups]

Can't be the same forever, the two points must intersect somewhere. The bullets always falling so the sights must angle downward in relation to the bore to meet the bullet POI.

 

[Paul5388]

Try this video of a .45 shooting and place your cursor on the barrel and see if the barrel moves when the bullet exits the barrel. This should be the English version.

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