.44 Russian vs .44-40

[Oldmanwesson]

Here is a simple question: would a .44 Russian cartridge fit into a cylinder chambered for .44-40? Does the .44-40 cylinder have the "ridge" around the inside of the cylinder like the .44 Russian does? I was under the impression that the .44-40 was narrower than the .44 Russian and the latter would not go into a chamber made for a .44-40...
Thanks for your advice!

 

[Tom K]

I just tried it and a .44 Russian will drop into a .44-40 chamber, but it is not by any means a "fit".

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Thank you! That explains it. Looks like the .44-40 with its bottleneck would have a ridge in the cylinder, too.

 

[Kurusu]

Here is a simple question: would a .44 Russian cartridge fit into a cylinder chambered for .44-40? Does the .44-40 cylinder have the "ridge" around the inside of the cylinder like the .44 Russian does? I was under the impression that the .44-40 was narrower than the .44 Russian and the latter would not go into a chamber made for a .44-40...
Thanks for your advice!

The .44-40 is basically like a .45 Colt necked down to .44(.427). And way more potent than the .44 Russian.

 

[glowe]

The chambers of a mint 44 Winchester in a NM3 or 44 DA Frontier will actually show two very shallow constrictions. Foremost one will be for the bullet and the next one back will be for the bottleneck of the case. Worn or dark bore chambers will often make is hard to see those ridges.

 

[BMur]

44 Winchester "Rifle" vs 44 Russian "Pistol"

Really, when we compare the two cartridges they differ greatly in design and origin. The 44 Winchester is a "RIFLE" cartridge in origin. The 44 Russian is a "Pistol" cartridge in origin...Which presented several problems actually on the frontier.

The original concept was to combine a Rifle caliber/cartridge with a Pistol chambering to provide a "Frontier" solution to a cartridge availability issue. Did it work? Not as well as you might imagine. It made sense in a lot of ways but in reality it presented some significant problems if you weren't careful out there on the frontier.

See Photo> I personally do not enjoy reloading the 44WCF because it is poorly supported in reloading dies from having a bottleneck case. The result is often a dimpled/worthless result if you are not careful. The problem is solved with careful reloading with a bench mounted press and case preparation but did they have that out on the Frontier?
Chamber pressures are much higher in the rifle that would "Fire form" the case to a totally different result than the black powder pistol.

What they should have done was make a 44 Russian lever action Rifle....that would have actually been a better Idea!



Murph

 

[McShooty]

The 44 Russian, Special, and magnum are great to reload and shoot and that is where I stay. One thing I would be interested in is a comparison of accuracy of 44-40 and 44 Special in guns of equal quality. That could be arranged with S&W or Colt replica revolvers, or with a choice of replica lever actions. Anyone ever see any shooting info on this question?

 

[BMur]

Accuracy comparison

I don't think the 44WCF is even close to the 44 Russian in "Pistol" accuracy. Mainly due to the fact that the 44 Russian being "extremely" versatile. I've found more Target loads for the 44 Russian in the Black Powder ERA than any other pistol caliber and I keep finding more. It was the most accurate large caliber pistol round in the Black Powder ERA "period". This actually continued into the "early" Smokeless ERA with the hand ejectors. The round was "KING" for many years until the "Smokeless" 44 Special put it to rest.

The 44WCF was basically a novelty in a pistol. It served its purpose for a very short time when cartridge availability was a real issue.
The only real option with the 44WCF is a FULL Load since it has a Rifle/bottle neck case that doesn't allow for various loadings. "I Don't believe in the "FILL" concept. It's a "Hot Rod" solution that does not produce accurate pressure from one case to another.) Plus you "are" introducing an air gap between the powder and bullet. So, it is somewhat dangerous! Especially when you use food products?

The 44WCF also doesn't allow for a significant choice in bullets. So, basically in my opinion The 44 Russian would kick you know what at the range. "Hands Down".

The only real advantage the 44WCF has over the Russian is case volume? I mean it is "Powerful" with a full load of Black Powder. I've shot this load in both the Colt Frontier and Smith & Wesson Frontier many times because it's a kick in the pants. Big BOOM! But honestly, it's best place is in the rifle chamber.

Murph

 

[BMur]

44WCF chamber

The below photo's depict a Pre-1960 Ideal Sizing Die. I have earlier ones that date to pre-1900 but they are basically the same with earlier die stamps and tools, etc. Notice the photo of the die chamber? Remember that the Re-sizing die mimics the Pistol or rifle chamber of the same caliber. It is machined to size the case to perfectly fit into in this case the Smith & Wesson Frontier Revolver?

The taper is actually near invisible to the naked eye in a clean chamber/die. This is how the pistol chamber "should" also appear. The reason it doesn't is because of corrosion from being loaded and left loaded for some period of time. So corrosion is actually taking place from dis-similar metals that are in constant contact at the taper of the pistol chamber. Causing a corrosion ring to appear.

This is in no way the same as the 44 Russian chamber. Totally different animal. The 44 Russian "Pistol" cartridge has a "case stop" which is the exact location where the case stops and the throat begins.

With the 44WCF? That taper is where the case "Tapers" or bottle necks down to throat specs but it is not the same as the 44 Russian since the bullet diameter remains smaller than the case throat. So, that's also an issue with accuracy of the Rifle bullet in the Pistol cylinder. Not really a good idea.

I honestly think it's best said that this rifle caliber in a pistol is a novelty item. It's kind of a joke really. I honestly don't think that Smith & Wesson was too thrilled with the idea but collectors love the rarity of the caliber. I just like the big Black Powder "BOOM"!



Murph

 

[Kinman]

I like just about any kind of .44, I shoot them all, some through Italian repops just for kicks (no pun intended). I have a Uberti Repop of the Colt Bisley in 44-40 it is very pleasant to shoot with 30 grs of Old Eynesford 3F under a .060 wad and 200 gr .427 RNFP bullet. I shoot that same load in another Uberti repop of the Schofield, its fun but fouls much quicker than the Colt. It begins to foul at the cylinder gap which makes it more difficult for people to re-cock for next shot. I've found that by wiping the cylinder face after every other cylinder does a good job of eliminating the fouling problem. I also have re-pop Winchesters chambered in 44-40, one a model '73, the other a Lightning pump. They could benefit from more powder and probably .429 bullet, I keep things simple and have a load that works in everything quite well. Accuracy with 44-40 is minute of man or deer out to 50yds, I have not bothered to try out to 100, I have real rifles for those purposes. If you just like to shoot its pretty tough to beat the Italian repops, they do hold up well, although their case hardening is more paint than actually hardening.
I only have one firearm in .44 Russian, an original 1st Model .44 D.A. I tried Cowboy Smokeless loads in it originally and believe the sharper recoil does the piece no further good, it seems to work much better with black powder and is all that much more fun to shoot, cleaning is always something I consider part of the hobby and take the time to thoroughly clean all firearms after use. I recently got lazy and let some 44-40 cartridges set after firing black powder for more than a couple weeks and needed to give them an extra soak in vinegar to remove the staining, followed by a thorough tumble to get nice and clean.

 

[BMur]

Pistol chamber of a knock off?

Kinman,
Can you post a photo of the pistol chambers of your modern 44/40 knock off? I’m wondering what kind of milling they did. If you’re hitting the target at 50 yards? They must have extended the chamber to include a throat that now equals bullet diameter. In other words, they must have introduced a case stop! That is not the case with antique pistols in 44 WCF.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

.44 - 40 Chambers ~ 'S & W', "DA" ( not mine, image borrowed from a Gunbroker Listing some time ago...)

Hosted on Fotki

 

[Oyeboteb]

One can always run .44 Russian Bullets through a Sizing Die to reduce their diameter a little, for use in .44 - 40 Revolver, if one wants to use Target Bullets of the old styles or what-ever else.

The only .44 - 40 Revolvers I have so far, are a Merwin Hulbert, and a Colt New Service dating to 1899.

I plan to resize some of my favorite .44 Russian Bullets, for these.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Some while ago there was a minty perfect S & W "DA" Target Model chambered in .44 - 40.

I think it was starting bid or $3,400.00

I really wanted to get it, simply because it was so totally wacky and improbable!

I did not get it, and it disappeared from the listings after a while, so...someone got it, but not me.

Looking back, I kind of wish I had gotten it, just because it was so interesting and minty and in it's way, made no sense to even exist!

But, I guess someone 'Special Ordered' it, way back when, and they felt, that is what they wanted!

I doubt I will ever see another.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I , recently almost bought a Colt New Service in 44-40 to compliment my 1894 Marlin (early one , 3 digit serial #) in 44-40 . My Marlin as what I would call the perfect barrel . The groove diameter is .426 . I cast / size my 200 RNFP bullets .427 . The case necks only expand about 1/2 thousandths when fired . The throat is that snug .
Now , back to the Colt I almost bought . I had been wanting a New Service for quite some time . I was excited to find one in nice condition at my local gun shop . I felt I should have the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel measured before committing . The owner has a local gun smith so we had him measure them . The owner of the shop called me back yesterday to tell me it had came back and it is " serviceable " . I thought , what does that mean ?
It turns out the cylinder throats are .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel is " .433 " , really ! I am not sure you could get a cast bullet that size in the case w/o crushing it . Needless to say , I'm glad I did a little research before buying it , I passed on it . Regards Paul

 

[Oyeboteb]

I , recently almost bought a Colt New Service in 44-40 to compliment my 1894 Marlin (early one , 3 digit serial #) in 44-40 . My Marlin as what I would call the perfect barrel . The groove diameter is .426 . I cast / size my 200 RNFP bullets .427 . The case necks only expand about 1/2 thousandths when fired . The throat is that snug .
Now , back to the Colt I almost bought . I had been wanting a New Service for quite some time . I was excited to find one in nice condition at my local gun shop . I felt I should have the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel measured before committing . The owner has a local gun smith so we had him measure them . The owner of the shop called me back yesterday to tell me it had came back and it is " serviceable " . I thought , what does that mean ?
It turns out the cylinder throats are .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel is " .433 " , really ! I am not sure you could get a cast bullet that size in the case w/o crushing it . Needless to say , I'm glad I did a little research before buying it , I passed on it . Regards Paul

The old Colts can have some pretty goofy "Groove-to-Groove" sometimes!

.433 would of course not even chamber in .427 Cylinder Bores.

Ugh!

I have not measured my "New Service" yet, so cross your fingers for me that it is "Okay".

 

[Kinman]

Kinman,
Can you post a photo of the pistol chambers of your modern 44/40 knock off? I’m wondering what kind of milling they did. If you’re hitting the target at 50 yards? They must have extended the chamber to include a throat that now equals bullet diameter. In other words, they must have introduced a case stop! That is not the case with antique pistols in 44 WCF.

Murph

Murph, These are the two repop cylinders, forgive the camera work. To clarify the only 44-40's I have that shoot to 50 yards are carbines, one '73 and the other a Lightning Pump.


Schofield


Bisley

 

[JohnBz]

.433 would of course not even chamber in .427 Cylinder Bores.

Ugh!

I have not measured my "New Service" yet, so cross your fingers for me that it is "Okay".[/QUOTE]


Just a reference, my 1891 Colt single action is .424 throat and .430 bore.
Those old 44/40 Colt measurements were often all over the place and therefore not very accurate.

 

[BMur]

Colt SAA

JohnBz,
I like the SAA's also. One thing though with the Antiques? They were often modified at some point. It's so easy to change barrels, cylinders, etc to even another caliber and if it's a later post say 1885 variation? There are no numbers on the cylinders. So the cylinder could have easily been replaced at some point. Possibilities with the Single Action Colts are endless. Often you will see matching numbers but when looking at the caliber on the trigger guard it might be stamped 44cal....but the gun is now a 45cal..?? How did that happen?? and it looks totally original.

I have a few SAA shooters that are put togethers. I've even changed calibers myself starting with a basic relic 'Antique" frame and assembling a great shooter.
I like shooting the .41 Long with Black Powder load so I have a few in that caliber that are Frankenguns but are a ton of fun to shoot and actually are extremely accurate.
I just can't pull the trigger on my minty antiques. I like brown or refinished guns for shooting. No harm done.


Murph

 

[glowe]

The bottom line is that a 44 Russian will fit in a 44 Frontier chamber. The cartridge rattles in the chamber due to the fact that the 44R brass is .014" smaller. Would it shoot through the smaller bore? Absolutely, but would raise the pressure by some unknown amount. The difference is only .006" and with relatively soft lead, should not be a problem for a 44R bullet to travel through the barrel of a 44 Frontier. Could the brass split at the base and blow back into the shooter's face, maybe.

As I took these images, I found one more issue with using 44R brass. Since the rim is smaller diameter, it can slip below the extractor star and fall back into the chamber.