.44 Spl. vs .44Mag. vs .45LC ???

[harry carey]

WARNING: HAVING SEEN TWO 45 COLT GUNS BLOWN UP, AND NO 44 MAGNUMS I MUST SAY THAT IF YOU HAVE NEVER HANDLOADED DO NOT TRUST ANYONE TO LOAD HOT LOADS FOR YOU. ONE OF THESE GUNS HAD TRIPLE THE MAX LOAD FOR THAT VERY OLD CASE IN IT. IT IS EASY TO DOUBLE CHARGE THE COLT CASE. IT IS AN OLD CASE AND WHEN A GUN BLOWS UP THE CASE HAS FIRST BLOWN UP. NO YOU CANNOT MAKE THE COLT DO WHAT THE 44 MAGNUM DOES. SHOOT THE MAGNUM. I HAVE SHOT A 44 RUGER LOOSE USING 22.0 2400 AND 250'S , AND 290'S AND 265'S WITH TOO MUCH POWDER IN THE 44. DO AS I SAY NOT AS I HAVE DONE. I HAVE TENNIS ELBOW IN BOTH ELBOWS, MY HANDS HURT, MY SHOULDERS HURT.I ONCE FIRED IN EXCESS OF ONE - MILLION RDS IN EIGHT YEARS . BUY A RIFLE.BUY TWO OR THREE.

 

[Andy Taylor]

Harry, Just out of curiosity, what guns were the .45's that blew up?
BTW, why are you shouting?

 

[makeminestainless]

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
The biggest advantages of the .45 Colt are that it will drive the same weight bullet at the same speed as a .44 mag, but do it at less chamber pressure. The other being that with any bullet, and especially a cast SWC, it will make a larger permanent wound channel, all else being equal, ie; bullet weight, design etc. It does offer less felt recoil with equal loads due to the lower chamber pressures. Your 625 will take some faily stout loads.

For more on that subject read this-

http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

Sorry but I feel I should interject here. From the article you list.

The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake. I don't know how long it takes to wreck a N frame S&W with heavy handloads but Jeff Cooper printed one time he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads if I remember correctly. I would agree that serious damage could be done in this amount of shooting with too heavy a handload.

The article also states that Ruger and S&W 45 Colt cylinders are of the same strength.

It may surprise many but the cylinder on the S&W .45 Colt is the same diameter as the Ruger Blackhawk. The webs (between chambers) and outside chamber wall are also the same. So basically the Ruger and S&W cylinders are identical in strength and dimension. We recommend handloads for the Rugers single action in .45 Colt caliber to 32,000 PSI levels.

I'd like to see a little more proof than above. Do we know for sure they use the same strength steel and what about the notches being offset on the Ruger? That notch in the thinnest section of the S&W chamber is just begging to split.

"Ruger and Contender only" loads for the 45 Colt will come within the lower realm of a standard 44 Mag loads that you can use in a 44 mag S&W without worry, but the Ruger is a brick compared to the S&W. To reduce the offense to Ruger fans, I will say your brick is really strong.

If you like down loading your 44 mag Smith, than yes a slightly warmed up 45 Colt Smith could be a basically equal but more comfortable alternative.

Case size and a lot of other things come into play but due to simple physics and geometry larger calibers usually can impart the same energy at lower pressure. This is most pronounced in something like the 9mm vs. 45acp debate. .429" is 95% of .452 so the difference is pretty slight. The 454 Casull takes advantage of it to so thoughly stomp the 44 mag, but even most of that is due to the major pressure incease.

 

[wbraswell]

You can buy medium load ammo for the .44 Mag, 1000 fps, I think, plus all the latest .44 spl. loads, they will do fine for 2 legged varmits, then the whole hog 240 grain magmun rounds for 4 legged.

 

[whelenshooter]

Originally posted by OKFC05:

Having seen the 6 44 mag bullets that did not make it into the chest cavity of a large Alaska Brown Bear (a couple of 375 rifle slugs did), I would consider all three calibers to be marginal for the big bears. No thanks.

OKFC05, can you tell me what kind of .44 bullets didn't penetrate? My guess is that they were jacketed bullets. A local person (Juneau, Alaska) had the same problem with a 240 grain JHP on a brown bear. It was hit in the jaw muscles, which knocked it out for awhile, but a short time later it was up and eating a deer the guy had shot. It looked like it would survive so no attempt was made to finish it off. Heavy cast bullets (both LBT and Keith types) usually penetrate very well.

My only Mountain Gun is in .41 magnum. I carry it with Federal Castcore 250 grain bullets when I want a reasonably light "just-in-case" gun when hiking, and I don't worry a bit! If I don't mind a bit more weight, then I carry an older style (Blackhawk sized frame) 4 5/8" stainless Ruger Vaquero with 335 grain LBT bullets over a stiff load of H110 or 296 (I'm not going to say how much... it works fine in my gun but maybe not someone else's.)

When people are referring to John Linebaugh's article that talks about the advantages of the .45 Colt over the .44 Magnum, remember he said the big advantage comes when using heavier than normal (over 250 grain) bullets, and that those .45 Colt loads are running at pressures LOWER than the .44 Magnum. There is no way a .45 Colt Mountain Gun can take the pressures that a .44 Magnum Mountain Gun can. The cylinder stop cuts are over the chambers and the metal on the .45 Colt is far too thin.

I love my .41 Magnum Mountain Gun! I've always felt that the Model 29 and 629 are a bit on the small size for handling heavy .44 Magnum loads. I think the N-Frame is the PERFECT size for the .41 Magnum, however, because it has smaller holes (.41 caliber) bored in cylinders the same diameter as the .44 Magnum. I shot my first elk with a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk .41 magnum that I bought at a sherriff's auction for $110, and I've been in love with the cartridge ever since.

 

[Dan Cash]

All of the speculation is well and good but back to your initial question.
A. .44 mag recoils too much for most people to be a "fighting" hand gun but will deliver a lot of punch on heavy game.

B. .44 special is easier to hit targets at longer ranges and is a manageable and effective round in your revolver.

C. .45 Colt or .45 Auto with a flat nosed bullet is, in my estimation and experience, a more effective killer than the .44 Special. Bigger hole, I guess.

Recommendations; shoot all of them and use what you can handle the best. All the power in th world is of no value if you can not deliver it.
Dan

 

[whelenshooter]

Originally posted by Dan Cash:

Recommendations; shoot all of them and use what you can handle the best. All the power in th world is of no value if you can not deliver it.
Dan

Dan, You hit that one right on the head! There is nothing else to say about it.

 

[Poohgyrr]

There is plenty of info on correctly pairing up powerful loads with revolvers that are made to handle those pressures.

For factory loads, start with ammo made by Buffalo Bore and Double Tap.

Factory revolver wise, Ruger's .44/.45 double actions (think Redhawks and Super Redhawks) are well established as handling the top end loads better than our N frame S&W's. (Of course, S&W now makes the X frame...) Dittos for Freedom Arms' revolvers.

(Fortunately, we don't normally need rounds loaded to those top power levels to stop two legged people from trying to kill us.)

Linebaugh, and some others, are well known for their strong well made custom revolvers.

Ross Seyfried opened a lot of eyes with his article on shooting Cape Buffalo with a custom .45 Long Colt back in the 1980's. Several others have done the same since then.

Quality scales and chronographs are common and not "that" expensive. It is much easier for people to verify the weight and velocity of rounds today then it was "back when".

Or, just buy an SSK Handcannon, or a rifle.

For what it is worth, my carry rules say I can't carry a .44 Magnum, and I don't have a .45LC. So my .44 Special is loaded with factory ammo from Federal or Double Tap.

Those are my thoughts, until facts show they need revision, and worth every penny you paid.

 

[bubbajoe45]

+1 to Dan Cash - Effective hits with any of these will do the job; splitting hairs over 2 hundredths of an inch? I don't think the .45 Colt will make a much bigger hole than a .44.

If you have resigned yourself to factory ammo, the .44 offers a much greater selection and availabilty (esp. now) of ammo, a broader and more versatile range of bullet types and velocities, and with Specials and low or mid-range magnum loads (800-1100 fps) you'll never have to worry about the gun. Whereas, buying hopped up .45 Colt loads, I wouldn't recommend Ruger or Contender loads in a Mtn Gun (nor would the manufacturers of those loads).

 

[BigRich315]

...but the Ruger is a brick compared to the S&W. To reduce the offense to Ruger fans, I will say your brick is really strong.

At 48 ounces my Blackhawk definitely IS a brick... but that brick shoots rapid 3" groups!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Gun 4 Fun:
Where did you get your info to support your statement that you can drive a .45 Colt the same velocity as a .44 Magnum? None of my reloading manuals cover those velocities and I couldn't find it in the article you attached.
Ed

Hello Ed!

I am sorry that I took so long to get back to you. I geuss I just forgot about posting in this thread. One of the articles that is as good as you're going to find is in Handloader # 217 by Brian Pearce, the article is titled "Understanding the .45 Colt". It starts on page 36. It is the best article I've ever read on the subject so far. If anyone has doubts about what I posted, read this article. If you still have doubts, buy the Redhawk and see for yourself, then contact Pearce direct and disagree with him. I contacted him, (not to disagree, but to verify that there hadn't been a misprint) and he was kind enough to personally respond back in a hand written letter, which I still have. He even used some of my questions in a couple of his columns in two different issues of Handloader. I have articles by John Taffin, Ross Seyfreid, Rev. Taylor etc. that all go into detail on the subject. If you read my post, I never said that the S&W platform will take those loads, but it will take loads that far exceed any factory offering, and those loads are running right on the heels of the .44. They kick less, have less blast, and are easier to shoot accurately. In a Blackhawk, and especially the Redhawk, the .45 Colt will take loads that make the .44 look wimpy. If that hurts the feelings of .44 mag fans, get over it 'cause it's true. I own Smiths in every caliber the N frame was made in except 10mm. I like the .44 magnum too. However, the Redhawk (which I've also owned in both .44, and .45 Colt) is a brutally strong gun, and can and will take 50,000 PSI loads. That will push 325 grain SWC 1500+ FPS and do it safely! The Redhawk is extremely comfortable to shoot with those loads too, due to it's size.

My statement in my first post here says the .45 Colt will push the same weight bullet to the same velocity, and at lower pressure. That is absolutely true. You simply need the right gun for it, and I never said those loads can be pushed from a Smith 25 platform. I did say the the Smith will take some stout loads, and it has and does for me when I need them.

I am puzzled by Linebaughs comment about the Smith's steel being rather soft, since in another article on the 25 that is poste on his website, he says the opposite. He says that the steels are the exact same as the 29's, which is what Pearce, Taffin and the others mentioned above all say.

I hope this clears up my post for you guys.

 

[akjaeger]

.45 Colt is becoming my favorite caliber!

I have mountain guns chambered in .44 mag, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt.
The mountain guns are my favorite S&W's, they incorporate everthing I need(accuracy, power, packability) and don't have any extra baggage(bull barrels, full under lugs, locks, high tech sights, wide triggers and hammers).
I bought the first, a 629-2 "Mountain Revolver" about 20 years ago while living in Alaska. I was in commercial fishing and guiding hunters at that time, so this powerful, handy revolver saw a lot of use.
I probably ran 15,000 rounds through this revolver over the years. They have ranged from a few full power 320gr loads to many, many rounds of a 250gr SWC over 8.5 grs. of Unique.
The two loads that saw the most use were a 280gr. WFNGC over 21.5 grs of WW296 and the above mentioned 250gr SWC "plinker" load, which is essentially a .44 special. I was so familar with this gun that I'd memorized the different sight settings.
Alas, last winter the 629-2 began to show signs of it's age, the trigger stud worked loose. I sent it back to S&W for repair and it's back in action now, although semi-retired.

I bought the 625-6 in .45 acp, because I was intrigued by the use of full moon clips and I was intimately familar with the mountain gun. It's been a great gun and has become my CCW of choice when I'm in urban areas.

Now to the .45 Colt.
I became interested in Dave Scovill's cast bullet for the .45 Colt, it's the RCBS .454 270 gr. SAA. I started to think that this bullet driven at 1000- 1100 fps could be the mythical "all-around" load for a mountain gun. It has a .370 wide metplat and plenty of weight to back it up. The trajectory should be close to my "plinker" .44 mags and the power would be comparable to my 280gr WFN's.
The thought of one all around load for my favorite revolver was more than I could resist. I found a cherry 625-6 .45 Colt on gunbroker and ordered some bullets fom Montana Bullet Works. The bullets weighed an actual 288 grs.
Dave sized the bullets .451 to fit the 625's cylinder throats and I started working up loads. I ended up with a load of 17.0 gr of Alliant 2400 in Starline brass ignited by CCI 300 primers.
This load shows 1050 fps over my Chrony and is extremely accurate, 3-4" groups at 50 yds. It's easy to shoot with a gentle shove for recoil and a dull boom for report, rather than the slap and bang which seems to cause flinching.
The .45 Colt is fast becoming my favorite caliber!