.45 - .70 cowboy rounds?

[johnt671]

I got a craving to shot my 1884 Springfield infantry rifle I've owned since 1977. I am familiar with the rifle but not the ammo for it. It came with a a box of Winchester rounds that I sold a while ago as I didn't plan on shooting it. Now I do and would like to know if cowboy rounds are made for this caliber.

Thanks.

 

[Shark Bait]

Black Hills makes some cowboy loads that are supposed to be safe for the trapdoor.

 

[shocker]

Winchester X4570CB.

 

[vonn]

Make sure that the ones you get specify for your gun , there are many brands that make suitable loads.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

To really get the most from your original Trapdoor, consider reloading for it.

1. The military 3 groove barrels in them normally require a cast bullet sized to .460" or so for best accuracy.
2. Frankford Arsenal infantry loads were originally loaded with a 405 grain bullet at 1,300fps. Later rounds for the 1884 and 1888 models were loaded with a 500 grain bullet at 1,300fps.
3. Cavalry loads started and ended with a 405 grain bullet at 1,100fps.
4. If loading with black powder, use a very soft lube like SPG or a mixture of beeswax mixed with Vaseline.

I load most of my fun loads (i.e. cowboy type loads) to 1,100fps with the Lee or Lyman 405 grain bullets cast fairly soft (20 to 1 alloy) and enjoy fine accuracy. For long range shooting I up the velocity to 1,300 fps.

Have fun with that old Trapdoor. They are amazingly accurate at long range. 1,000 yards is child's play with them when using the infantry load.

One final note: Trapdoors with the original front sight shoot high (6 MOA or so) with smokeless powder. You'll see many of them with a taller front sight to compensate for the difference between black powder and smokeless loads.

 

[diyj98]

Stick to the lead bullet cowboy loads for that trapdoor. It's not designed for higher pressure loads or jacketed bullets.

 

[johnt671]

Make sure that the ones you get specify for your gun , there are many brands that make suitable loads.

Will the box be marked as being for the trapdoor?

Thanks to all for the prompt replies.

 

[WR Moore]

Not likely. The major manufacturers are going to load old cartridges to the pressure levels of old guns. You can check the specs on factory websites. An old Remington catalog I've got lists two 45-70 loads: a 405 gr soft point at 1310 f//s and a 300 gr JHP at 1810 f/s. Both those loads should be appropriate for the trap door.

The Black Hills cowboy load is a 405 gr flat point lead bullet (duplicate of the original) at 1250 f/s. Also compatible with the trap door. Per a post above, it sort of splits the difference between the original rifle load and the carbine load. Probably your best choice.

Hornady lists two loads for the .45-70 in their Leverlution line. Both seem heavier than normal, but they have specially blended powder for that line of cartridges. I'd definitely check with Hornady on the suitability with the trap door.

Boutique ammo makers might make some heftier loads intended for the Marlin 1895. Those would not be safe in the trap door and would hopefully be labeled as such. Loads like this are why the .450 Marlin cartridge was developed. Gives improved performance but impossible to load in weaker actions like the trap door.

 

[29aholic]

Trail Boss is a good alternative if you reload. I use 17gr with a cast 405 in 45-90 so somewhere around 15gr in a 45-70 would work, but check

 

[Echo40]

Assuming that it is rated for Smokeless Powder, pretty much any .45-70 Govt load that has "Cowboy" or "Trapdoor" on the box will obviously be safe to shoot.

Otherwise, anything that launches a 300gr bullet at around 1600fps or a 405gr @ around 1350fps should be safe. If it's outputting velocities in excess of 2000fps, stay away, that's stuff for more modern rifles with stronger actions.

If it's actually an original from the year 1884, you'll need to use Black Powder loads.

 

[old tanker]

Buffalo Arms sells ammunition loaded with black powder suitable for the trapdoor. These old warhorses will surprise with what they can do when fed proper loads.

45-70 Government 405 Grain RN Black Powder Ammo Box of 20 - Buffalo Arms

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Black Powder is fun to shoot but proper and different cleaning methods are required.

Black Bills makes quality Cowboy ammo that will not harm your Trapdoor.

Black Hills Cowboy Action Ammo 45-70 Government 405 Grain Lead Flat

Save your brass, it's worth a good penny and you might decide you want to load your 45-70 ammo in the future.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Maybe someone can correct me here but I am of the understanding that Remington ammo marked "45-70 Government" is loaded mild for the weaker trapdoor actions. If not marked "Government " don't use it in older guns.
Reloading is the best way to get the most out the old BP cartridges. And casting your own lead bullets will keep the cost of shooting down. My standard load for my old TD is 11 grains of Unique and a Lyman 385 gr RN. Very pleasant load with more than enough accuracy for target shooting or hunting. The original BP loads were actually quite stout.
These older guns had larger firing pins and I've found that increasing the powder charge also increases the number of primer cup perforations and subsequent blow back.

John

 

[StrawHat]

Your 1884 was designed for black powder cartridges. Two posters have provided links to companies that make such. Cleaning is easy, hot water and a short squirt of dish soap. Clean, rinse with very hot water. Lightly oil.


The rifle load used 70 grains of powder. The carbine load was the 405 grain bullet and 55 grains of powder. The troops of the day complained of recoil in the carbines with the heavier loads. Rear sights were regulated for one load or the other.

Kevin

 

[old tanker]

Don't sell the trapdoor short. My well carried Model of 1878 has gone to Forsythe, Montana for the Quigley Match many times. My shooting buddy is a serious competitor and does well with his Sharps and carefully tailored ammunition.

I am there mostly to visit and have fun. There is a certain perverse glee that come from shooting a hundred and forty year old rifle with black powder ammo duplicating the government load and posting a score in the upper third knowing there are some guys with megabuck custom guns that did worse.

 

[johnt671]

Don't sell the trapdoor short. My well carried Model of 1878 has gone to Forsythe, Montana for the Quigley Match many times. My shooting buddy is a serious competitor and does well with his Sharps and carefully tailored ammunition.

I am there mostly to visit and have fun. There is a certain perverse glee that come from shooting a hundred and forty year old rifle with black powder ammo duplicating the government load and posting a score in the upper third knowing there are some guys with megabuck custom guns that did worse.

This reminds me of the time years ago when I went to a turkey shoot with an H&R single barreled 12 gauge. My first opponent wore an English country club outfit on the was probably three weeks pay for me, and a nice Italian over and under shot gun that was at least a month's pay. We both hit on the first shot and moved further back, and did this four times before he finally missed. By then we had a pretty big group watching. He threw his gun down on the ground like it was a cut off broomstick, and I just burst out laughing at him being a spoiled brat. Good times.

Thanks again for all the leads from everyone.