.45 ACP Wheelgun Headspace
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Yes, but not always accurately so. My 625JM holds ACP ammo w/o clips at the proper depth for ignition. My Model 22 of 1917 has one chamber where the ACP round sinks a smidge lower and will not ignite. SO, clips are a must on this gun. This subject arose 8 or 9 years ago: the member/savant on this area has not posted for years so my explanation is only basic. He believed S&W changed chamber specs on these ACP guns in the late 80s/early 90s.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
Wow. That s a part of the answer I didn't expect. (I'd think if they were going to do it at least they'd get it right.)
StrawHat
Member
This deals with it, somewhat.
I have a Model 625-6 Mountain Gun, the chambers are fine for use without clips. I also have three of the Modrl 22-4s, two 4” and one 5 1/2”. They also fire fine without moonclips.
Granted, I only ran one cylinder through each of the four but got 100% for that test.
Kevin
I have a Model 625-6 Mountain Gun, the chambers are fine for use without clips. I also have three of the Modrl 22-4s, two 4” and one 5 1/2”. They also fire fine without moonclips.
Granted, I only ran one cylinder through each of the four but got 100% for that test.
Kevin
I have two later S&W .45ACP revolvers, a 325 PD and a 22-4 1917 reproduction. I also had a 625-10 which self-destructed. For years I would relate in similar threads that I had never had a misfire without clips. Then I had a few. I went back and corrected the latest post, which was the only one I could find. Anyway, newer S&W revolvers are not reliable without the clips (unless you are using Auto-Rim ammo), and were never intended to be, as explained above.
25-2 revolvers still work fine without clips.
25-2 revolvers still work fine without clips.
Some of mine will headspace .45 acp cartridges without moon clips very nicely. Some of mine won't.
Thanks very much. Interesting topic.
DWalt
Member
I believe the early WWI Colt 1917s did not have case mouth shoulders and the use of clips was essential.
I've read that also. I believe that is true.
Smith is cited as the inventor of the clips...while at the same time they headspaced all their original '17's on the case mouth as well.
It's pretty sad that with all the modern precision, CNC machinery, the factory can't (won't) cut the chambers to a proper depth with a shoulder to properly headspace ACP cases! They could do it 107 years ago!
This deals with it, somewhat.
I have a Model 625-6 Mountain Gun, the chambers are fine for use without clips. I also have three of the Modrl 22-4s, two 4” and one 5 1/2”. They also fire fine without moonclips.
Granted, I only ran one cylinder through each of the four but got 100% for that test.
Kevin
Sincerely appreciate the copy, as had relayed this to some unbelievers on another forum years ago. Once while looking at a brand new 625 in gunshop, looked into the cylinder to discover no headspace ledges. Didn't buy it, but the last model 25 i bought did.
DWalt
Member
I have a late WWI Colt 1917 that does not require using clips. Fired cases are easily removed with fingers. I have at least 30 full moon clips I seldom use, but I did use them about 10 years ago when I was still shooting IDPA and reloading speed counted. Back then, I was the only shooter in the group who used a M1917. Same was true when I was shooting bowling pins.
StrawHat
Member
Correct! For whatever reason, Colt forgot how to cut a proper chamber and merely bored the cylinder straight through. The clip was needed for headspace and ejection. The Army was not amused a Colt replaced as many of the cylinders as were brought to their attention.
Kevin
StrawHat
Member
Both are true. Joseph Wesson tasked his engineers with the idea of building a revolver that would fire AND EJECT the 45 ACP cartridge. Cutting a proper chamber was not hard. Getting the rimless cartridge to eject was the sticking point. JW and his team came up with two new inventions to solve the problems, the half moon clip and a full moon clip. The Army chose the 3 round clip.
Kevin
This deals with it, somewhat.
That sidebar article is from Handloader #254, SEP-2008. Brian Pearce states "about a decade ago" (late 1990s?) he observed this problem on a run of some revolvers, not all.
In Handloader #341, JAN-2022, he stated that he didn't know if his complaint to S&W helped but that problem was soon corrected resulting in no misfires.
All of my S&W 45ACP revolvers, as well as 10mm Auto revolvers, shoot rounds without moonclips reliably, even the ones I've re-chambered/reamed by hand (10MAG & 45WSM).
There are numerous reasons why you can have misfires without moonclips even from a revolver manufactured properly.
A lot of different factors can come into play, no matter which model revision :
- depth the chamber shoulder is cut to
- brass length
- firing pin length
- gross headspace
- cylinder endshake
- proper full length sizing of case
- proper crimp applied to bullet
- primer fully seated in primer pocket
- depth of the primer pocket
- &, primer hardness in conjunction with hammer/mainspring strength.
All the above, either singularly or in addition to other ones, can increase the likelihood your revolver will not fire them consistently without moonclips.
It's not always cut & dry.
.
Handloader #341 excerpt:
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