45 Auto Rim brass from 45 Colt

[DM32]

I've been reading the forum for awhile, and finally decided to register and ask a question.
I have a M1917 S&W .45 revolver. I've been reloading using .45 ACP brass with moon clips. I have .45 Auto Rim brass on the way.
I have some .45 Colt brass. As an experiment, I cut a few to length and sized them. I do not intend to load them and fire them, but they do seem to fit, and headspace on the case mouth, so the rim would be used only for extraction, not headspacing.
Again, I do not intend to load them, but I am curious if this is an option. Would the unsupported section beneath the rim be a problem?


I bought the revolver last fall. The lanyard loop had been removed, along with the serial number. Everything else matches but I know it's that serial number that matters. I contacted the ATF and sent them a letter detailing the gun and the missing number. I'm waiting for a response, but from talking to local ATF agents, they don't see it as a real problem, but I have to get approval to have the number restamped. I know, maybe I should have let it go but with my luck...

 

[Alk8944]

There is no safety concern with trimming .45 Colt brass to .45 ACP length so it will headspace on the case mouth. Actually a reasonably good idea. Extraction might be a bit dicey with the small rim though. This is the reason the Model 1909 cartridge had a larger rim, to be used in the Model 1909 revolver. Because of the larger rim it cannot be used in the Single Action Army.

There really isn't any "unsupported area" ahead of the rim. The case head is about 3/16" thick, so there is solid brass well into the chamber. At least with cases made since WWII!

 

[DM32]

I primed one of the cases and it fired and extracted properly.
It's a great shooter, one of my favorites, though the moon clips tend to hang up after fouling sets in. I'll just wait for the .45 AR brass.
Hopefully, the ATF will approve the restamping. If not...well, they get the frame and I keep everything else.
I bought it with my C&R license from an antique shop in NH. Apparently the previous owner was a judge - if he didn't worry about the serial number, maybe I shouldn't have either. Oh well.

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

I agree completely with Alk8944, he knows his stuff.

I have done that with Colt brass as well, no issues at all. And because the cases are shorter once trimmed, never had extraction problems. The short cases fall out of the chambers before they can get tangled under the extraction star. And the rims are the same diameter as the 45 AR which never give problems.

One note: shortening 45 Schofield cases have a thinner case wall and don't make cases swell when bullets are seated like some 45 Colt brass when cut short.

You did the right thing by contacting BATFE, I think. The stories I've read about on this forum of similar situations have turned out well. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

If you get the go ahead, to re-stamp: if you can't find someone with the right size digits or a stamping jig so the numbers come out neat and straight on the butt where they show, you may want to stamp on the left side of the grip frame under the stock so it doesn't show.

Brownells has the jig and different size stamps that I've used with good success. You can't match the old fashion font of the original numbering stampings on the gun, but it's a shooter anyway.

Stamps are available

 

[DM32]

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I'll take it out of the "what if" stage and load up some rounds using the .45 Colt brass. I keep the loads on the light side with my vintage and antique guns.
I saw the revolver in a shop about 3 hrs from my house but left without it. But it stayed in my head. I got the C&R license for that gun (I live in MA- 'nuff said about that). The shop owner held it for me, I got the license in about 3 weeks and made the trip back to get it.
It came with a very old holster, and it had some holster rust, but I cleaned and touched it up. Whoever cut the lanyard loop off was a butcher, but, like you said, its a shooter.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

A moonclipped 45ACP case & a 45 Auto Rim have .085-.089" of rimmed thickness. The 45 Colt rim only has .060" of thickness. How can this work? Don't you have too much headspace?

Also, I don't understand the title says "45 Auto Rim brass from 45 Colt". Doesn't the OP have a M1917 in 45ACP?

What am I missing?

.

 

[Hondo44]

We cut the 45 Colt cases the exact overall length as the ACP and AR; just long enough for the case mouth to headspace on the ACP shoulder in the chamber. The Colt rim sits .025" off the cyl face and sticks out of the chamber just like an ACP case does, with or without a clip. The primer is the same distance from the recoil shield as the ACP or AR primer. Proper headspace is maintained.

The AR headspaces on it's thicker rim (and its case mouth).

 

[Breakaway500]

Pictures please..gun and holster at least..

 

[les.b]

DM32:

By the way, welcome to the forum!!

Best Regards, Les

 

[Hondo44]

Whoever cut the lanyard loop off was a butcher, but, like you said, its a shooter.

I've seen many done that way, unfortunately. File flat, sand and polish. Lanyard swivels are about $20 and easy to find if you want one.

A properly stamped serial on the butt will be behind the swivel hole, reading right side up with muzzle pointing to the right for a pre war gun. To the left for a post war gun.

 

[DM32]

Yeah, the title of the post isn't quite right. Basically I made .45 ACP brass with a small rim from 45 Colt brass, or 45 AR brass with a smaller rim.
I did post the same question on another forum (generally a good forum) and I got a little "roasted." That's the beauty of gun-specific forums like this.
Here's part of what I put in the BATF letter:
"The serial number 85779 S is still located on the bottom of the barrel, on the cylinder face, on the back side of the ejector, and penciled on the inside of the wooden grip. There are assembly numbers on the frame (56874) and the same number on the yoke (crane), and on the inside of the side plate. There are inspector’s marks on the frame and near the trigger guard (S1, S2). There is a “flaming bomb” stamped on the left side of the frame, near the hammer."

 

[Muley Gil]

I've seen many done that way, unfortunately. File flat, sand and polish. Lanyard swivels are about $20 and easy to find if you want one.

A properly stamped serial on the butt will be behind the swivel hole, reading right side up with muzzle pointing to the right for a pre war gun. To the left for a post war gun.

True, for a commercial model. However, I believe this is a military issue 1917.

Doe you think we have confused the OP yet?

 

[Alk8944]

Here is a link to the lanyard swivel from Numrich in case you want to replace it: Bad Request

Don't have any idea why it says "Bad request", but it does link correctly!

 

[DM32]

As you can see in the photo, the grips were also damaged when the lanyard loop was removed, so I don't think I'd replace the loop. It's more of a beast than a beauty, but it's definitely a great shooter.
It's funny how 4 of my last 5 handgun purchases involved Smith & Wesson somehow:
1917 .45 S& W
.38 Smith & Wesson Airweight
1908 Colt Police Positive - .32 S&W ammo
Enfield "Tanker" .38 S&W ammo

Back in the day (80s), my original service revolver was a big old K frame Smith and Wesson .357 (I don't remember the model). I liked it much better than the Sig 9mm we switched to.

 

[Dave T]

I'm not trying to bash the OP so please don't take this wrong. Just expressing a couple opinions.

First, why on earth go to all this trouble cutting up perfectly good 45 Colt brass to head-space in the chamber, when the 45 ACP is available nearly everywhere? Extraction you say! Do you own a pencil? Seriously, I don't get it.

Second, I continue to be amazed at the revultion so many shooters have to full-moon clips. Clips (half-moon originally) that hold semi auto cartridges are what a 1917 was designed for. The AR came along years later for the hold outs (even back then) who couldn't abide the clips.

I've owned close to a dozen 45 ACP revolvers in the last 30 years (still have a few in the safe) and have never fired an "un-clipped" ACP round or "Auto Rim" through any of them. I used to load and unload the clips by hand before the proliferation of the loading and unloading tools available today.

OK, rant over. (smiley face goes here)

Dave

 

[DM32]

Good questions.
First, I live in MA. The Big Boys - Midway, Cabellas, Starline, etc will not ship brass to MA. Period. New, unprimed brass -- nope, can't ship it to MA. I have to go through friends or family in NH to get 45 AR brass (which I am working on).
Secondly, I bought a big box of varied, old brass, and in that batch was a bunch of 45 Colt brass. I don't have any use for it (right now) so I began looking at it in an experimental way. And, behold, I was right - it can be used. Simply cut it to length, size it, and load it.
Then there's the moon clips. I have many moon clips, half and full, and they're usually fine, but some are bent, some won't sit right when the cylinder if fouled, etc. User error, I know, but I just want a rimmed cartridge.

Another reason - my local gun store (in ME) had a bag of used 45 Colt brass (100) for $5.00. I should have grabbed it but I didn't. I'm going back soon to see if it's still there. But, they have no 45 AR brass, new or used. No one seems to have it around here.

 

[Jack Flash]

Well, that explains it. (I had the same questions as Dave T., but like him, I did not want to give even the appearance of bashing the OP.) I can't believe the shipping restrictions to MA. My sympathy there.

When you think about it, this is actually an interesting experiment if someone has an abundance of .45 Colt brass or finds himself in an emergency-type situation. Short of that, I would just use .45 ACP brass with or without clips. Or find a way to get some .45 AR brass shipped in.

By the way, how do you cut down the .45 Colt brass? I have a tubing cutter (used for plumbing or automotive purposes). Do you use something like that?

 

[DWalt]

Please keep us posted as to what happens with your foray into the BATFE. It should be educational. From other reports I have read, getting the BATFE to allow a SN restamping (and I understand that they will specify the new SN, not you) is far from being as simple as sending a request letter.

Case in point, the Bonnie Parker "Squat Gun" a Colt Detective Special. I don't remember the details, but the SN had been removed. The auction house (RR Auctions, Amherst NH) handling the sale went to BATFE to get it approved for sale (knowing it was going to bring a handsome price), but had a very difficult time getting BATFE cooperation. That auction was in 2012. I'd suggest you contact RR Auctions and get the story from them.

 

[jebstuart]

Here's the answer to all of your firearms related access problems:
Load your belongings into a South bound moving van and don't stop until you pass the (imaginary) sign that says "Mason-Dixon".
P.S., Give Schumer the friendly goodby sign for me as you pass through New York.

 

[DWalt]

"By the way, how do you cut down the .45 Colt brass? I have a tubing cutter (used for plumbing or automotive purposes). Do you use something like that"

There may be other ways, but one time I had several hundred .32 H&R Magnum cases I wanted to shorten to .32 S&W length. I made up a simple jig (actually a block of steel with a hole in it) and used a Dremel tool and cutoff disc. It worked very well, and is fast. I have made many .300 Savage cases out of .308 brass, and have used a tubing cutter to shorten the necks after resizing, and that works well also. But a .308 case is a lot easier to hold than a .32 Mag. You must use one of the miniature tubing cutters.