45 Auto Rim - Good Commercial Heavy Bullet for Penetration

[Gun 4 Fun]

I'm not sure if he's Creeker or LAH here.

Paul,
His forum name is LAH here, but his signature line is Creeker.

I have bought several thousand bullets from him over the last year and a half or so, but I know he was having some physical problems, and I'm not sure he is up and running full strength again yet or not.

He is an honest and good guy to deal with, and has great prices and fast shipping when he is going. He posts bullets for sale in our classifieds every so often.

 

[quickdraw03]

Smith crazy,

Those look just plain mean. They would have to be effective for social work! Let me know what you work up!

QD

 

[Skip Sackett]

#254 VA. I looked at the magazine. Mike V had some stuff in the #250 range on the 45AR but Pearce's article is in the #254. LoadData.com has the loads. Thanks for reminding me to look there!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Skip,

VA is right. # 251, page 82, first question/answer at the top of the page.

You are right about the dedicated article on the AR being in #254. I have them both.

 

[cp1969]

As much as I like semi wadcutters, for a load for a non-magnum gun to be used as bear defense, I'm thinking I would use roundnose with a small flat point. Penetration is paramount and a roundnose will penetrate better.

Or for a jacketed bullet, something like the Sierra JSP's used for silhouette shooting. Sports masters? Or something like that.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Skip,

VA is right. # 251, page 82, first question/answer at the top of the page.

You are right about the dedicated article on the AR being in #254. I have them both.

I was going by the dedicated article.

Dare I ask what the question is and the answer then? I mean, without violating the copyright laws?

I stand (sit) corrected.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Actually, a round nose won't penetrate as well as a swc will. They tend to veer off course too easily. The wide meplat of the swc creates a sledgehammer blow, and helps open a permanent wound channel all the way through flesh, while flesh tends to close back in around a round nose design, even if it has a small flat point thereby preventing loss of vital blood.

Penetration is important for sure, but so is large wound channel, and straight line penetration is top of the list for me.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I was going by the dedicated article.

Dare I ask what the question is and the answer then? I mean, without violating the copyright laws?

I stand (sit) corrected.

Skip,
it was a long question, so I don't know if I can attempt to violate any lwas anyway by printing it here. I'll try to sum it up in my own words so we are both safe.

Give me a minute to pull it out and sum it up.

BRB

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

As much as I like semi wadcutters, for a load for a non-magnum gun to be used as bear defense, I'm thinking I would use roundnose with a small flat point. Penetration is paramount and a roundnose will penetrate better.

That is not necessarily corrrect. Round nose bullets tend to be somewhat unstable in animate targets and will often yaw, which limits penetration adversely. The only way to know is to conduct repeatable testing, such as calibrated gelatin protocols.

The heavy Keith bullets described by several posters will give you excellent penetration along with better defined wound channels (something the round nose doesn't do) and will perform better. A 250-260 .45 SWC at 900 fps or thereabouts will penetrate over 30" of tissue. If you don't think so, try to find anybody who has consistently recovered one from game animals killed with those loads. They generally shoot completely through deer, elk, bears, etc. and are not recovered. Some reading of John Linebaugh's writings will verify this.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

My bad, question not so long, answer is.

The guy was asking about Alliant Power Pistol, and Universal Clays data. He had read Mike V's article but it hadn't included those two for 240-250 grains swc's.

Pearce answered (abbrev here greatly for space) that 6 grains of PP will drive the Lyman 454424 250 gr swc to 838 fps in a 1955 S&W Target with 6.5" tube, and upping it to 6.8 provided 901 fps.The last load is getting close to +P levels (23,000 psi for those that don't know).

Then he lists some loads for the RCBS 270 SAA. Cast from #2 alloy his came out at roughly 280 grains. 6.8 gr of PP gave 885 fps. That is above current SAAMI spec of 15,000 CUP ( again for those who don't know) for the .45 AR, and is approx +P level for the .45 ACP.


DISCLAIMER
These loads should only be used in post war revo's for several reasons, the main one being that most post war guns have much better heat treated steels than earlier guns.

 

[cp1969]

Re: Round nose vs. SWC penetration, my experience matches that of Elmer Keith. See his description on p. 126-127 of his book Sixguns.

 

[Paul5388]

I think metacarpal problems slowed Lynn down on his casting. That and a move into town, but he may be doing some machine casting now.

I usually don't run my M625-6 too much over 1100 fps with 255 gr bullets. 270 gr bullets are only in the 950 fps range. However, Clark's Custom guns uses 625s for their .460 Rowland conversion, so I guess that's a permissible velocity.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

No disrespect meant here cp1969. Just a difference of opinions. It's what makes this whole hobby interesting, and a valuable source of educational material.

I'm a big fan of EK, but he wasn't right about everything. He had his opinions, and seldom do not agree with them. here I do, and so do John Linebaugh, John taffin, and brian Pearce. Three men whom I choose to listen to since they have access to al current and older designs, and they do an awful lot of penetration testing with them all. See the Linebaugh penetration seminar tests-
Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests

If you'll notice, the best penertators are most always the LFN's or WFN's.

I have shot a few of our large whitetails with the H&G #68 200 grain scw at 1,000 fps from a 1911, and they pass through them like a hot knife going though warm butter. Those are stubby little buggers in the grand scheme of things.

If the round nose was a better penetrator, then al the big bullet companies wouldn't be listening to Afircan PH's on which way they should be designing their bullets. Most are finally wising up and going to the flat nose design with their FMJ's. Reason? Straighter and deeper penetration.

I rely on what works for me on animals far more than what worked in some test tube gelatin. It simply isn't the same as an animal, and that's what I hunt.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing out on something here. Anyone ever eat one of them test tube innards?

 

[Paul5388]

44 Special CPBC 255 1,031 22.5 8.0 Year tested:2003
45 Colt LBT 350 1,187 42.0 8.0 Year tested:2003
38 Special JHP 125 620 8.0 n/a Year tested:2004

That 8.0 on both is inches of penetration in bone and wet paper. I don't think I've ever met a 125 gr .38 that would only do 620 fps, but it still penetrated 8.0 inches of dry paper.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Paul,


That is awfully low, and yet.......
Chances are that the hollow point filled with paper and acted like a flat nosed solid anyway. My point to the other gentleman was that flat nose bullets penetrate better than round nose designs.

This is the one that is relevent to this thread though-
45 Auto Rim Keith 240 860 fps 20.0" n/a
Year tested:2004

If that is bumped up to around 1,000 fps, the depth number will be even better with that bullet.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Tim,
The loads you mention are on line at LoadData.com along with many more. They are attributed to that dedicated article of #254, hence my reference to it.

Since I'm trying to consolidate powders, not attain more, Power Pistol "ain't" gonna happen. I'm out and not going to get more. Now, I do have a bunch of Unique and AA#5 and SR4756 and Herco and ......................................so one of those is going to get the call, maybe all of them!

At any rate, I found some loads and will be extrapolating others. Only one problem, work. I've got more work right now than "Carter has little pills!" Its bad when work gets in the way of your hobby!

 

[VAdoublegunner]

My bad, question not so long, answer is.

The guy was asking about Alliant Power Pistol, and Universal Clays data. He had read Mike V's article but it hadn't included those two for 240-250 grains swc's.

Pearce answered (abbrev here greatly for space) that 6 grains of PP will drive the Lyman 454424 250 gr swc to 838 fps in a 1955 S&W Target with 6.5" tube, and upping it to 6.8 provided 901 fps.The last load is getting close to +P levels (23,000 psi for those that don't know). his came out at roughly 280 grains. 6.8 gr of PP gave 885
...

Yeah, I thought Venturino's article in #254 was a little weak on the 45 AR higher power level stuff in modern guns. As a practical observation, he usually is compared to Pearce.

I have tried the Power Pistol load Pearce mentioned and it is a humdinger in my 4" 625-8! Accuracy is superb, and I got right at 900fps. I have also loaded a comparable charge of Unique in Starline brass and a Speer 250 LSWC for a chrono'd avg 942fps in that gun. The 45 AR can get up and walk in the right gun, the operative term being the 'right gun' (note: the Unique load, although not specifically given, is over SAAMI spec in the 25kpsi range and should only be worked up to with caution in new Starline brass and exacting handloading techniques, and would only be suitable for recently made guns.)

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

VA-

I couldn't agree with you more regarding Mike V. I have little use for very few of his articles anymore. He didn't start off that way, but he is has become over time a real posterboy for the real creampuff loads.

I don't believe thatit's any secret that am a huge fan of Brian Pearce's stuff, and for good reason. He tells it like it is in the real world, and you can go out and duplicate his findings yourself, whether on the target range or on the game in your area.

Skip-

I understand about the powder thing. My powder shelf looks like it's out of control (but then again I load for about 20 different cartridges in both long and hand gun), strangely though, there are only few of the newer powders there. I have had such good luck with most of the old standby's that I rarely stray from them. It's really hard to go wrong with Unique, 231 for light and mid range loads, and 2400, H-110/296 for the heavy stuff.

I have had very good luck with Power Pistol so far, and it is a very clean burning powder, and seems to be very consitant across the chrono. It is one of the very few newer powders that I have decided to keep on hand. It works very well in my 97 year old TL with 255 429421's.

BTW, that happy meal will kill you quicker than lead you know.........

 

[quickdraw03]

VA-

BTW, that happy meal will kill you quicker than lead you know.........

Now that's the truth!

 

[cp1969]

No disrespect meant here cp1969. Just a difference of opinions. It's what makes this whole hobby interesting, and a valuable source of educational material.

I'm a big fan of EK, but he wasn't right about everything. He had his opinions, and seldom do not agree with them. here I do, and so do John Linebaugh, John taffin, and brian Pearce. Three men whom I choose to listen to since they have access to al current and older designs, and they do an awful lot of penetration testing with them all. See the Linebaugh penetration seminar tests-
Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests


If you'll notice, the best penertators are most always the LFN's or WFN's.

I have shot a few of our large whitetails with the H&G #68 200 grain scw at 1,000 fps from a 1911, and they pass through them like a hot knife going though warm butter. Those are stubby little buggers in the grand scheme of things.

If the round nose was a better penetrator, then al the big bullet companies wouldn't be listening to Afircan PH's on which way they should be designing their bullets. Most are finally wising up and going to the flat nose design with their FMJ's. Reason? Straighter and deeper penetration.

I rely on what works for me on animals far more than what worked in some test tube gelatin. It simply isn't the same as an animal, and that's what I hunt.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing out on something here. Anyone ever eat one of them test tube innards?

No offense taken.

I'll concede that Elmer probably wasn't right all the time...if you'll concede that neither are Linebaugh, Taffin, and Pearce. Nobody's right all the time.

I'm not sure how much faith I want to put in the data shown in that link when it shows the .25-20 out-penetrating two 220 grain .30-06 loads.