Hey guys, i have some auto rim brass coming in the mail and i was hoping for some help. I know ar and acp are the "same" but i am looking for tried and true loads for a 250gr keith style lead bullets in the auto rim. I will be shooting them in a 22-4 Model of 1950 classics. I have yet to slug my bore but i suspect it to slug .451 ish. Can i use .454 bullets? I would like mild and hot load data. I have been loading for 25 yrs so i have a pretty good collection of components(thankfully). I have books dating way back from today and very little data exists. I can accomodate just about any powder. However, i am out of 231 at the moment. Thanks in advance!
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45 auto rim loads
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As you already seem to know the 45 ACP and 45 AR are the same and the load data is the same too. Take your favorite 45 ACP load and load it up in the 45 AR cases.
The Gun Digest 2011 yearly magazine had an article "All About the .45 Auto Rim", as did Handloader #254, "Handloading the 45 Auto Rim", & John Taffin had one also, which had several 250/255gr lead SWC loads. A couple were:
- 7.0gr/Unique @ 933fps (I've used up to 7.5gr)
- 13.0gr/2400 @ 1029fps (1.5" group at 25yds.)
- 7.0gr/Power Pistol @ 886fps
Sierra #5 list some good 45 ACP revolver loads. One is their 240gr JHC (45 Colt bullet w/cannelure) and Unique/7.6gr & Power Pistol/8.3gr, which I've used, both at 1100fps. These should be fine with the 250 LSWC too. Work up to them & just beware of the deeper seating Colt SWCs in the ACP/AR cases. (My 250gr LSWC bullets seat .365" deep vs. the Sierra 240gr JHC seating .335")
The Starline ACP & AR brass have the same capacity (27.3/27.4gr water) & I've used their AR brass with 45 Super loads. They're plenty strong.
You mentioned .454" bullets but you didn't say what size your throats are?
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- 7.0gr/Unique @ 933fps (I've used up to 7.5gr)
- 13.0gr/2400 @ 1029fps (1.5" group at 25yds.)
- 7.0gr/Power Pistol @ 886fps
Sierra #5 list some good 45 ACP revolver loads. One is their 240gr JHC (45 Colt bullet w/cannelure) and Unique/7.6gr & Power Pistol/8.3gr, which I've used, both at 1100fps. These should be fine with the 250 LSWC too. Work up to them & just beware of the deeper seating Colt SWCs in the ACP/AR cases. (My 250gr LSWC bullets seat .365" deep vs. the Sierra 240gr JHC seating .335")
The Starline ACP & AR brass have the same capacity (27.3/27.4gr water) & I've used their AR brass with 45 Super loads. They're plenty strong.
You mentioned .454" bullets but you didn't say what size your throats are?
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StrawHat
SWCA Member
Any load that is good in the 1911 will work in the AR case also. There are quite a few fellows loading "heavy" bullets in the ACP.
Kevin
Kevin
drummer007
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Maybe it was me, but I had trouble with R-P 45 AR cases, heavy bullets (Hornady 250 gr XTPs and NBC copper coated 255 SWCs) and heavy loads. The bullets would pull out before a cylinder full was fired. I was using a 625JM and a max roll crimp. I had better luck with PMC 45 AR brass, but still got occasional pulling. I finally went to ACP brass (Winchester) in full moon clips before the problem was solved.
StrawHat
SWCA Member
Crimping alone does not keep bullets in place. You also need sufficient neck tension. I have two expander dies to load the ACP/AR, one is .451 for use with jacketed bullets and the other is set up for cast lead bullets and is .454. When used correctly, I often can rely on neck tension alone to keep bullets from pulling but for consistency, I use the taper crimp die on all my rounds.
Kevin
drummer007
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You are correct about neck tension. I was using dies that were set up for jacketed bullets and I had gone further and polished the expander plug a thousandth of 2 smaller. Had no trouble with 250/255 gr bullets at velocities under ~ 850 ft/sec or so, but when I got above that velocity the bullets started to walk out of their cases under recoil. R-P 45 AR cases were the worst in this regard, PMC 45 AR were better but some still pulled. When I went to Winchester 45 ACP cases in moon clips, the problem went away.
I find that R-P and Federal brass is about the thinnest (wall thickness) in the business. I need .001" over sized bullets when using there two. Or, I save them for use with lead bullets, which is like saying the same thing, I guess. But I always have neck tension problems using them and FMJ bullets.
I just received my 500 ct order of Starline brass 45 AR cases.
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My AR cases are Starline. I have had good luck with it in the past with 44 mag. Most of my other brass is from commercially loaded ammo or from one of the makers and a bit of Military brass. You guys have given me the help I was looking for. There is limited loading data in the "books"for ACP and AR with heavy bullets. Thanks for your help and I will post some results once I get going. Thanks again!
You mentioned .454" bullets but you didn't say what size your throats are?
.[/QUOTE]
They are all running about .455. That surprised me a bit. I traded off a 1978 Colt SAA 45 4 3/4 last summer and it averaged .458 and the barrel slugged .451! I have yet to slug the 22-4.
.[/QUOTE]
They are all running about .455. That surprised me a bit. I traded off a 1978 Colt SAA 45 4 3/4 last summer and it averaged .458 and the barrel slugged .451! I have yet to slug the 22-4.
Those .454" bullets should work out well then.
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Here are the links for the Taffin & Gun Digest articles. The Handloader one is only available as a back issue.
SMITH & WESSON'S 625-2
http://media2.fwpublications.com/GD45AutoArticle/GunDigestSample45Auto.pdf
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Thanks for the Gun Digest article. I hadn't come across that.
Although they don't say so on their website, back issues are available in .pdf format:
Kendra Newell <[email protected]>
Thursday, Aug.15, 2013 12:07 PM
Subject: Back issues of Rifle, Handloader, etc.
We do have them in PDF format. They are $5.95 per issue. We do not have them listed on our website, but you can get any magazine sent to your email in PDF format for $5.95.
Kendra: 1.800.899.7810 Ext. 109
Thursday, Aug.15, 2013 12:07 PM
Subject: Back issues of Rifle, Handloader, etc.
We do have them in PDF format. They are $5.95 per issue. We do not have them listed on our website, but you can get any magazine sent to your email in PDF format for $5.95.
Kendra: 1.800.899.7810 Ext. 109
Stuart
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I have 200 cases of ballon head 45 Auto Rim, but I don't shoot the model 1917 much, so by loading in the lower range, those ballon head cases should last as long as me. I have been loading 4.0 grains Titegroup with 250 gr Pb bullets. They make a great plunk in the berm. I have experimented with 20 cases, and they show no signs of wear after 3 reloads.
UPDATE... Well with Starline cases, soft lead Magtech 250gr lead flat nose, and 6.2 gr of Unique im getting no pressure signs, no leading, and decent accuracy. Just ran a few different loads before dark and i am very impressed with this round. I will post some better data as in chronograph and group measurements in a day or so. I recovered a slug from my backstop and found it deformed about the same as they were in the 45 Colt. I would say this is a new favorite of mine. Thanks to everyone that helped out with data. I will work up some other loads at a later date but i am impressed with what i have done so far. I just love the looks of the AR case and it sure looks like it could stop a train. Hope everyone has a good evening and ill catch up in a few days.
45AR loads
Glad you're liking them so far. Are those Magtechs the .454" bullets you originally mentioned?
I like "dressing up" the 45 AutoRim cases with speciality bullets too.
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45ARs with HDY 225 FTX & cast 200gr lead HP
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Glad you're liking them so far. Are those Magtechs the .454" bullets you originally mentioned?
I like "dressing up" the 45 AutoRim cases with speciality bullets too.
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45ARs with HDY 225 FTX & cast 200gr lead HP
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I started out with those magtechs. They are ok and just what I had on hand. I just lubed and sized some Keith style bullets and loaded them up also. Im happy with the magtechs but they are just a plain jane soft bullet. I have favored Keith bullets for years so ill probably stick with them mostly. I am for sure sticking with .454 bullets as my accuracy improved with them. And I removed that neat old half moon front sight and installed an SDM Patridge with gold bead. Its ugly on this gun but easier to see. Im tempted to change back and have the sight color changed or something. Sorry it took me so long to get back but I have been out with the flu and man I thought I was going to have to fill out my will early. Ill let everyone know how she shoots this mess of Keith bullets.
