45 SUPER face-off: 4586 -vs- 625PC (new data 9/18/22)

[BLUEDOT37]

How about a 45 Super face-off?

4586 -vs- 625PC,

semi-auto -vs- revolver,

solid barrel -vs- cylinder gap,

4.25" -vs- 4.0" bbl.

Seems like a pretty close match, or does it?

The 4586 appears to have an edge because it has a slightly longer barrel & no barrel-cylinder gap, unlike the 625.

But the 4586 really only has a 3.29" barrel when you measure from the chamber's shoulder to the muzzle.

And the 625 actually has the barrel's full 4" plus 0.29" of cylinder throat travel, minus .007" of pesky pressure leaking B-C gap, for 4.283 inches of launch runway.

For the "fire in the hole" I'm handloading new Starline 45 Super brass filled with Power Pistol, plugged with Zero 185gr JHPs, seated out to a COAL of 1.220", & sparked by CCI-300 LPPs.

Starline's 45 Super brass is stronger & heavier than their 45 ACP brass (Empty Wt./gr: 87.4grs. -vs- 79.1grs.) and have slightly less capacity, because of the thicker web area, than their 45 ACP brass (volumetric capacity H²O wt./gr.: 26.8grs. -vs- 27.3grs.). External dimensions are the same for both cartridges.

When I first started loading for 45Super in my Colt Govt. Mk.IV, Series 70 I used Power Pistol & found anything over 11.6grs bulged the brass because of it's unsupported chamber, so 11.3grs became my standard max load.

Then Power Pistol became "unavailable" & I switched to LongShot using the same load. After the craze subsided I was able to switch back to Power Pistol & haven't used LongShot since. That's going to be a Part II test, now that I have some on-hand again.

My (6) incremental loads start off where the Sierra VI Reloading Manual stops at 9.9grs/P-P for it's top 185gr 45ACP revolver load, maxxing out at 1300fps from the 7.5" Freedom Arms revolver.

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WARNING:
All data in this thread is non-standard load data & should not be used in any firearm not in good condition or setup for 45 Super.
Do your own research & cross-referencing.
Use at your own risk!
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I'll test (6 of each per gun) at 10.1, 10.4, 10.7, 11.0, 11.3, & end with 11.6 grs (for a total of 72 rounds), since both guns have fully supported chambers, using my LabRadar chronograph.

Things stayed very close right until 11.6grs.

What happened to the 4586's velocity there?

Same thing I've had happened other times I pushed a semi-auto to it's upper limit, it ran out of recoil spring force & couldn't keep the barrel/slide locked up until the bullet left the barrel losing pressure & velocity.

My 4586 has a 20# Wolff hammer/mainspring (#27520), which is standard strength for it, and has a 20# Wolff recoil spring (#47920) instead of the factory strength 17# recoil spring.

Occasionally I've found that a Wolff recoil spring is physically too long for the intended pistol & when the slide is racked fully rearward it stops not on the frame abutment, like it should, but rather on the compressed recoil spring, which isn't good.

This 20# recoil spring exhibited this problem when I originally installed it & I had to cut off (1) full coil to stop it from bottoming out on itself & according to my in-the-gun test it exerted 19# of force when fully compressed in the 4586 after being shortened.

Wolff's next heavier recoil spring for the 4586 is a 22#er (#47922), which I also tried originally. It required having (2) coils cut off of it for proper fitment & afterwards it tested at 21# of force installed in the pistol.

I opted going with the 20# recoil spring at that time, which was still installed for this chrono test.

At this time, since I plan on sticking with 11.3grs/P-P as my max 45 Super load, I see no need to go to the heavier recoil spring.

Next stop, test the same loads using LongShot.

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PS: I did this test a week ago but it took some time compiling the data. Coincidentally, the new Handloader magazine, Issue #339, just hit my mailbox & it has a write-up / test / handloads on 45 Super on page 28 by Layne Simpson. First I've ever seen by a reputable magazine.

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Results using Zero 185gr JHP with a COAL @ 1.220"
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The winner (by one cut-off coil ) at an average of 1314mv & 709me, the 625PC.

A maximum velocity of 1324 fps was obtained twice from the final load in the 625PC.
Ext. Spread: 25.8 fps, & Std. Dev: 10.07 fps
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I started taking a temp/humidity gage with me as I always knew it was humid at the range because of their water trap to minimize lead dust but this is crazy! Most times it's just in the low to mid 90%.
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[STORMINORMAN]

Quite the presentation: Thanks!

P.S. Did your 625pc require any modification for this exercise?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I've done a few thing to the 625PC before this but nothing "needs" to be done to it to shoot 45 Super.

Just try to insure good bullet-case tension & a firm taper crimp to prevent the bullets from jumping crimp with the full loads.

Also, I shot these in the 625PC like I do regular 45ACP loads, without moonclips.

The taper crimp allows them to headspace on the chamber's shoulder & they easily flick out with your fingernail. I like easy.

I usually load all of my ammo intended for my 45ACP revolvers in Starline 45 Auto Rim cases but it was easier to just load all of the test ammo the same this time, in 45 Super cases.

Starline's 45AR brass is plenty strong enough for 45Super loads & you can roll crimp them.

I love those fat rimmed 45AR cases.

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[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks for the most informative and prompt response!

I found it interesting in Hodgdons data for 45ACP/45 AutoRim & 45 Super there was the 200gr Speer JHP with IDENTICAL starting load of 7.0gr Longshot @ 918fps (13,300 cup), with a MAX for 45ACP of 7.8gr @ 1,013fps (16,900 cup) & 8.1gr @ 1,053 (20,100 cup) for 45 Super ...

Al the Hodgdons data (relatively new, BTW) for 45ACP +P uses Accurate powders. There is, unfortunately, no 45 Super data with these powders to compare to... Makes it pretty hard to compare.

Seems to me like quite a bit of a rise in pressure for only an additional 0.3gr powder...?

Nonwithstanding this, I think it is agreed that current SAMMI presures (stated in psi, unfortunately) are 21, 23 & 28K for 45ACP, 45ACP +P & 45 Super.

But, there doesn't seem to be readily accessable (?) maximum pressures stated in cpu format for these three calibers: we can presume that the Hodgdons data at 16,900 cpu is ≤ the maximum (I would hope?) for 45 ACP. The same should apply for the 45 Super load at 20,100 cup.

I have no real desire (or practical need) to aspire to the O/P's fps or energy levels (no need for a 10mm here!), but a few stout 45 AutoRim loads with 185, 200 & 230gr bullets for a Model 25 might be nice?

Any clarification would be much appreciated!

Cheers!

P.S. Looking forward to Part II with the Longshot data: never did have any Power Pistol...

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I always scratched my head over Hodgdon's LongShot load data for the 45 Super.

No idea what's going on with that.

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[SuperMan]

Thanks for the data...

My .45 Super is a modified Kimber Stainlss Target II... Have never run bullets lighter than 230 grains which run 1100+ fps... 250/255s at 1050 fps.

Have a 5" 625-7 PC but my only concern in running loads that warm is the possibility of cracking the unsupported area of the barrel that protrudes into the frame window. It is quite a bit more than the older 25-2s and 625s...

Bob

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Have a 5" 625-7 PC but my only concern in running loads that warm is the possibility of cracking the unsupported area of the barrel that protrudes into the frame window. It is quite a bit more than the older 25-2s and 625s...

The 625-8PC has the longer barrel breech (~.355") too, verses my 325NG & 325TR's ~.237" length.

Doesn't strike me as particularly thin, like on the 696's, but worth considering nonetheless.

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[BLUEDOT37]

45 Super, 200 & 230gr data

Here's some more load data results I can share.

The 185gr bullets in 45 Super are the Top Dog in velocity & energy but thought I'd try out some 200 & 230gr loads to see by how much they're better.

All used Starline 45 Super cases, CCI-300 primers & fired from my M4586.

The 200gr HAP loads had 1.220" COAL while the 230gr HAP loads had 1.230" COAL & all used CCI-300 primers.

As soon as I compile my 185gr data using Long Shot I'll post it.

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[BLUEDOT37]

More 45Super load data

Here's the 45 Super, 185gr JHP using LongShot data.

Looks like Power Pistol edged out LongShot, grain for grain.

As previously mentioned, the max load of 11.6gr of P-P was more than the recoil springs could handle & it did not increase in velocity over 11.3grs.

However the max load of 11.6gr of L-S did increase in velocity over 11.3grs. Apparently it's 1312fps (a 34fps increase) was just under what the spring's max could handle.

Had the 11.6gr load of P-P increased by the same amount it would have been ~1323fps, if the springs could have handled it.

Generally speaking, L-S had higher extreme spreads than P-P.

All of these Zero 185gr JHP handloads had a COAL of 1.220" & used CCI-300 primers.

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[tlawler]

Excellent data BLUEDOT. Thanks for sharing and getting me interested in it. I’m going to put my last 30 rounds through my 625-3 today. I just wish I could find some more brass.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Thanks.

Yeah, I'd like to find some 45 Super brass too to replace what I lost testing.

Probably be a while before Starline makes a run of them but they did make some 45 Auto Rim (which work great for 45 Super loads in 625s) recently so maybe there's hope.

I have seen internet tests where standard 45ACP brass works fine with 460 Rowland loads but it was in a Ruger Blackhawk cylinder, which of course is fully supported.

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