.455 Webley AND .45ACP?

[Fishslayer]

Looking at an old 3" S&W yesterday.

The salesman said it was a British lend/lease unit that was chambered for .455 Webley and that it would also fire .45ACP with moon clips. I asked how the ACP headspaced & he told me "with the moon clips."

Huh?

How does this work?

 

[computeruser]

ACP round is inserted into clip that rides in the cartridge groove. The clip holds it and 3 or 6 rounds, and prevents them from slipping too far into the cylinder. The clipped rounds are inserted into the cylinder and it's off to the races. Thus they are not headspacing on the case mouth, as .45acp was designed, but are instead relying on the moon clip to provide a false case rim off of which they can space.

Picture borrowed from Wikipedia article on moon clips.

 

[Jack Flash]

Was it a Top Break Revolver? Or did the cylinder swing out?

Respectfully, are you sure it was a S&W? Lend/Lease came along at the outbreak of WWII (circa 1940), long after S&W quit making top breaks. I could be wrong, but I thought that most or all of the Lend/Lease revolvers were chambered for the British .38/200 round.

Of course, British Top Break Revolvers were chambered for .455 Webley, and many were imported here and converted to fire .45 ACP. But these are not Lend/Lease, unless the salesman thinks the Brits lent guns to themselves.

I do not believe you could close the action on an unconverted Webley if you loaded its chambers with moon clipped .45 ACP. And on a converted one, headspace would be too sloppy (for a prudent person anyway) to try to fire .455 Webley.

 

[Jack Flash]

Forgot to say:
If it has a swing out cylinder and is a S&W, most likely it was purchased by the Brits in WWI, originally chambered in .455 Webley. The Canadians also bought some of these. At some point it was sold as surplus and converted to .45 ACP. No one had thought of Lend/Lease back then so the Brits had to buy them from S&W.

If so, the big question is does the ejector rod reside in a shroud or just latch into a small under barrel lug?

 

[bmcgilvray]

If it is still chambered for .455 then the .45 ACP with clips won't work in it. If it has been modified to accept .45 ACP then the .455 will no longer be suitable. Due to differences in headspace one can't have it both ways.

 

[rhmc24]

The WW1 S&W .455 was usually the 2nd model but there were some earlier 'Triple Lock' first model. Both swing out cylinder types called the 'hand ejector'. The S&W top break was at the end of its production near the beginning of WW1 and probably few if any bought by the Brits and few if any made in .455.

The .455 S&W 2nd Model had a bare ejector rod while the 'triple lock' ejector rod had the shroud.

The .455 Hand Ejectors that are converted for US ammo are often to .45 Colt. A .45ACP conversion may also exist.

 

[Jack Flash]

... The S&W top break was at the end of its production near the beginning of WW1 and probably few if any bought by the Brits and few if any made in .455.
...

I hope I did not give the impression that I thought it might be a S&W Top Break. I meant that if it is a top break, check to see if it says Webley or Enfield on it.

If the cylinder swings out, it probably is a S&W, but Colt also sold some .455s to England in WWI.

In any event, the salesman is interested in selling it and very little else. Historical accuracy and even the safety of the buyer be damned.

 

[Fishslayer]

If it is still chambered for .455 then the .45 ACP with clips won't work in it. If it has been modified to accept .45 ACP then the .455 will no longer be suitable. Due to differences in headspace one can't have it both ways.

That's what I thought. I was looking at some other guns & the caliber caught my eye. Then the guy said it could fire both & that got me curious. Never heard of it before & don't think I'd care to try it.

It's a nice looking weapon in better condition than I would expect of a war veteran. Next time I go to that shop I'll see if I can get more details. Maybe I misunderstood & it's ACP only but I'm pretty sure he stated it would fire both.

Was it a Top Break Revolver? Or did the cylinder swing out?

Respectfully, are you sure it was a S&W? Lend/Lease came along at the outbreak of WWII (circa 1940), long after S&W quit making top breaks. I could be wrong, but I thought that most or all of the Lend/Lease revolvers were chambered for the British .38/200 round.

It was a swing out cylinder, it was a S&W and it was a .45.

 

[Jack Flash]

IIRC, the US sent some M1917s to England right after Dunkirk, so it's just possible that it was Lend/Lease in spirit if not strictly speaking, in fact. I suppose anything that is chambered for .45 ACP could be said to fire .455 Webley, although as we noted previously, that practice would not be advisable.

How long is the barrel? M1917s were 5-1/2", while the revolvers the Brits bought during WWI were 6-1/2". Whether it has a simple lug or a shroud under the barrel is another question that may shed some light on its origins.

 

[Fishslayer]

How long is the barrel? M1917s were 5-1/2", while the revolvers the Brits bought during WWI were 6-1/2". Whether it has a simple lug or a shroud under the barrel is another question that may shed some light on its origins.

OK... now you guys have ME interested.

Next time I'm by that shop I'll take a closer look. Pretty sure the barrel is 3". I'll check for any numbers, etc.

 

[majex45]

Two .455s

The .455 case is larger then the .45ACP case near the head. Therefore the 45 case is unsupported at the point where pressure is highest. I do not recommend you fire it if it has been converted.
There was a vogue in the 1970s (about then) to take surplus .455s and convert them to more modern configuration by rechambering and shortening the barrel. This was fueled by the British government selling off our heritage cheap. They made it so difficult for a Brit to own a .455 that they had no value in the UK and so thousands went to the USA.
I have rescued two: a "Triple Lock" and a "Second Model" they are in .455 and because of our crazy gun laws, I have never fired them!
I recently heard of second model that was cut into many pieces with a hacksaw then the bits thrown into the Thames - because the owner was afraid of the mandatory 10 year jail term for possession without a licence. I very nearly cried.
I hope you like the piccie.

 

[handejector]

Looking at an old 3" S&W yesterday.

The salesman said it was a British lend/lease unit that was chambered for .455 Webley and that it would also fire .45ACP with moon clips. I asked how the ACP headspaced & he told me "with the moon clips."

Huh?

How does this work?

Sometimes, I smile at the complex answers here.

Remember Ockham's razor:
the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
______________________________________

"The salesman said it was a British lend/lease unit"
Simplest?
Salesman does not know what he is talking about.
(I know- a completely novel idea)

_______________________________________



"unit that was chambered for .455 Webley and that it would also fire .45ACP with moon clips. I asked how the ACP headspaced & he told me "with the moon clips."

Huh?

How does this work?"
Simplest?
See first answer above.

____________________________________
"Respectfully, are you sure it was a S&W?"
Simplest?
OP said it was......

_____________________________________
Simplest assumption for this gun?
>S&W 455- 2nd Model (odds are with us for a 2nd, but POSSIBLY a TL, though it seems the "knowledgeable" salesman would have mentioned that )
>Cyl faced off for ACP with clips
> If a 3", barrel chopped.

 

[ButchG17]

OK... now you guys have ME interested.

Next time I'm by that shop I'll take a closer look. Pretty sure the barrel is 3". I'll check for any numbers, etc.

Take a camera along and get a few pictures for us! I can post them for you if needed.....and if you can email them to me.

 

[Fishslayer]

Sometimes, I smile at the complex answers here.

Remember Ockham's razor:
the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
______________________________________

"The salesman said it was a British lend/lease unit"
Simplest?
Salesman does not know what he is talking about.
(I know- a completely novel idea)

_______________________________________

Well, I'm still very much a S&W n00b so I wasn't gonna throw the bs flag. Better to be thought a fool, etc.

Your thought HAD crossed my mind, tho...

 

[Jack Flash]

We would love to see pictures. Even though it has been chopped, etc, it's fun to see (or speculate) on what it once was. Depending on how far gone it is, some of us have spare cylinders, ...

... Better to be thought a fool, etc.

People here quit thinking that about me a long time ago.

 

[Fishslayer]

Update with pics

Went by the shop today. The gun is listed as a 2nd Model Hand Ejector.
Guess I was misremembering the barrel length. Looks like 2.5"?

Looks like it's been refinished. The S&W logo on the right side looks like it's been polished halfway off.

There are three proof marks at the base of the barrel that look like crowns or something. Several others as well.

Looking at the photos it seems the cylinder doesn't match the frame? Didn't notice it before.

The gun was filthy. At least we know it shoots with going KABOOM!

Looking at the photos some more... that front sight doesn't look like it belongs?

 

[DCWilson]

That front sight looks like the kind that Parker-Hale put on their chopped military -> civilian conversions after WW2. The hammer looks funny; has the tip broken off? And the cylinder's color does suggest that it may have dropped in from some other gun.

Nothing here inspires confidence. I'd buy a different gun.

 

[lebomm]

I concur. Second model .455 chopper w/P-H sight and cyl. faced off. WILL NOT fire .455 safely in this condition. Those original Mershon galoshes are kinda cool, tho'.

Larry

 

[majex45]

Can't quite see

It could be a 45 ACP cylinder, fitted to an old .455 Webley frame. Curious.
I cannot quite see the proof marks but they look like Liege proofs. Even curiouser.

 

[Jack Flash]

...
Guess I was misremembering the barrel length. Looks like 2.5"? ...

Looks like about 3-1/4 inches to me.

Remember, you don't just measure the barrel to the frame, but all the way back to the cylinder.