.46 SHORT S&W AMERICAN?

[BMur]

I keep finding period listings for the .46 short rimfire associated with the Smith & Wesson American revolver. Does anyone know if this is true? Was there a .46 short rimfire American revolver made?

I’m only aware of the Remington and that was an early conversion that involved the using of Rollin White’s bored through patent.

However, the 1875 Winchester catalog clearly states “Smith & Wesson” army revolver included in the .46 short rimfire listing.

Perhaps it was submitted to the U.S. Army trials but never manufactured?

This would be the largest caliber revolver Smith and Wesson manufactured since the bullet is listed as .456 in diameter. That’s bigger than the Schofield at .449.


Murph

 

[K Frame Keith]

I did an internet search on the 46 rimfire as I had never heard of it before. Reportedly designed by Remington in 1868. Apparently the 46 rimfire was a .458 bullet intended to fit 44 bore weapons.
Thanks for finding something new.

 

[BMur]

Military records

It’s extremely interesting reading old Military records. Especially the Military pistol trials that were basically continuous after the Civil War until the very late 1870’s. It was a focus during the Indian Wars.

They are very much incomplete and often non specific when you need them to be but I’m thankful that they exist for historical reference.

It seems that in 1867-68 timeframe Remington in agreement with the Smith & Wesson patent of bored through cylinder manufactured the first cartridge large caliber revolvers in .46 rimfire. There is documented material that exists that supports that they were issued to the U.S. Army for field tests at that timeframe. 1868-1869.

A follow up recommendation is made to purchase 1000 Remingtons and 1000 Smith & Wessons in the same caliber as the U.S. Army pistol! This is a quote from the records and prior to the
1000 44 American center fire purchase in 1870-1872 trials. Cartridges in large numbers were not issued for the .44 American center fire until June 30, 1872. 130,000 cartridges were issued.

I don’t think any other records remain regarding the early contract purchase. It does suggest that at least some of the very early Americans were chambered for the .46 short during the early trials.

The recommendation was from the chief of Ordnance Major Gen. A.B. Dyer and he is clearly talking about .45 caliber pistols.

QUOTEapproved by General Sherman and Secretary of War the purchase of:
1000 Remington single shot 50 cal pistols.
1000 Smith & Wesson revolvers of same caliber as our Army revolvers and
1000 Remington of the alteration caliber (.46rf) to be issued for comparative trial in service.

It may have also been a mis-understanding of what a .44 cap and ball revolver actually chambered. .454 bullet.

Still, it’s possible a trial run was in .46rf.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I wonder if this is getting confused with the B. Kittredge attempt
to get 400 Remington percussion revolvers converted to a 5 shot
.46 RF. and contacted S&W for a license to use the Rollin White
patent. They in turn solicited Rollin White and ask him if he would
accede but he initially was argumentative and didn't consent but
he must have changed his mind because there are converted Remington
1858 New Models in a 5 shot .46 RF. with the April 3rd patent date
rolled around the outside of the cylinder.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Remington conversions

Several early examples of Remington conversions actually have the Rollin White patent stamped on the cylinder. Remington actually advertised conversions as early as 1866 and the first of these is listed as the .46 rimfire.

The earliest examples lacked an ejector rod for both the Army and Navy calibers. It was obviously accomplished at the Remington factory and with the permission of Smith & Wesson using the Rollin White patent and all were stamped on the cylinder until the expiration of the Rollin White patent in 1869.

It’s the connection with Smith & Wesson and the exact same time presenting both of their examples of what the U.S. Army wanted for a service pistol that is intriguing.

The fact that records are thin leaves us guessing and that the U.S Army actually adopted a 44cal center fire in the American cartridge in 1872. We know this from Military records.

There was a large contract involving Kittredge that amounted to 4,540 altered or converted Remington .46 revolvers that was delivered in April of 1869 just prior to the Rollin White expiration. They were all stamped on the cylinder with that patent date.

Prior to that the government actually altered Remington Army revolvers already in in stock to .46rf and it looks to me like some were also tested at .44 rimfire to match the Henry rifle caliber. That’s why there are both 5 and 6 shot examples.

It’s because of Smith & Wesson’s involvement that I am curious about that caliber being on the American frame and also as I posted in my first post? You can see “period reference” that supports it using the American frame as a platform for the .46 cartridge at that time.

Smith & Wesson was deeply involved in the conversions performed by Remington and wanted money from the U.S. Government for their alterations. Some are actually listed as .44 rimfire but are believed to have been .46 rimfire so again, the records are thin and non specific since there are so many players in the U.S. Army submitting input during the trials.

One thing is also very clear when reading the Military records. The Ordnance dept wanted 45’s. It’s very clear in their corrective measures. Alter gun submitted to match standard caliber and in center fire.


Remember also that the American and Schofield are basically the same gun. The Schofield supported a .45 caliber round.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Military influence

After reading through the records it’s obvious that it was the military that was calling the shots backed up by the US Government.

The Chief of Ordnance wrote a very convincing letter that basically stopped the renewal of the Rollin White patent and convinced President Grant to veto Whites motivation for renewal.

The Military was also the source of the 44 rimfire on a pistol platform and the .46 Rimfire from different opinions given by military personnel. Confusion in the records between the 44 Rimfire and 46 Rimfire is also obvious.

Since it’s also clearly recorded that the military was altering test gun calibers anything is possible at this point.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


The whole Rollin White patent situation is complicated and involved.
The wording of the patent gave White and by extension, S&W a
monopoly on the practical cartridge revolver.

It was after Rollin White was denied an extension of the patent
that Benjamin Butler engineered a compensation bill in Congress
and it was that bill that was vetoed by Grant. The President is
not involved in the extension of patents (but I'm sure he could
influence the decision).

At the time, the Rolling White patent was looked upon as a im-
position to a free competitive firearms market. To help create
sympathy, Rollin White granted the US Government free usage
of his patent.

Bills to compensate White were brought up in congress every
year from 1870 to 1878 (IIRC).


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Kinman]

I have a Remington Arms Rolling Block pistol that is supposed to be the first single shot cartridge pistol adopted by the US Military. At the time the Army was using the old 50/70 in the earliest Trapdoors, Sharps as well as Remington Rolling Blocks. It is chambered in 50/25 and is a bit of a challenge to reload, 56-50 brass and a 240gr. conical lead bullet .512". Looks kind of like a 45ACP on steroids. 25grns of 3F over .030 wad works just fine as recommended. Navy arms brought out some repops a few years ago, I have one in .357 that is fun to shoot.

 

[BMur]

Additional info

A very clear picture of obvious confusion is developing.
When cap & ball revolvers were being converted to cartridge the lesser caliber remained as the identifier.
Example;

44 cap and ball= 44 cal cartridge revolver
However, the caliber was actually.45

This remained apparent from 1866 until 1872

Notice the 1868 order form from K&Co still lists the .46 rf as a 44 cal revolver.
Storrs also ordered about 1200 Remington.46 rf revolvers in 1868. The same 44rf identifier was used.

That is the root cause for researched confusion thinking 44 rf was actually a .440 rf Henry when in fact it was not. It was a .46 Rimfire in 456 caliber being identified using the old cap & ball method. Still calling it a 44.

The old records did not clearly identify the .46 Rimfire. They kept calling it a 44 cal rf in lieu of the old caliber identification pre-cartridge.

I’m finding more evidence that the American was submitted for trials in .46rf. How many? How long were they made in 45cal?

Likely very few but it sure looks like they were manufactured.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Bills to compensate White were brought up in congress every
year from 1870 to 1878 (IIRC).

I have to correct that statement. It was 1877 and not 1878 that
was the last year a bill was introduced to compensate R. White.
The main reason they stopped was that Benjamin Butler was too
busy running for governor to introduce it in Congress.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I know this thread is an old one but I felt it wasn't resolved and
I wanted to address a couple of issues that were brought up in
earlier responses to this thread.

"A very clear picture of obvious confusion is developing.
When cap & ball revolvers were being converted to cartridge the lesser caliber remained as the identifier.
Example;

44 cap and ball= 44 cal cartridge revolver
However, the caliber was actually.45"

The percussion 1860 Colt's caliber was determine by the bore of
the barrel (not the groove diameter). The term "bore" is often
misunderstood. It refers to the largest diameter that will go into
the barrel without interference with the lands (or just touching).
Many people think the groove diameter is the bore but it isn't.
I used to think this for a long time until I read something that
pointed out my misconception (you can check this on the NRA's
website on definitions).

I don't know exactly when caliber changed from the bore to the
groove diameter but it was basically around the same time that
breach loading cartridge firearms came into use. One exception
was the Richard's conversion of the 1860 Colt (still being called
a .44 instead of its groove diameter of .45).

"Notice the 1868 order form from K&Co still lists the .46 rf as a 44 cal revolver.
Storrs also ordered about 1200 Remington.46 rf revolvers in 1868. The same 44rf identifier was used."

Remington knew that they could not manufacture (or convert)
any revolvers while the Rollin White patent was still in forced
unless they obtained some kind of an agreement. The Remington
Factory approached S&W in early 1867 on obtaining a licensing
agreement but negotiations dragged on until Feb. of 1868 when
a deal was finally consummated.

I don't know of any cartridge conversions done to the Remington
1858 New Model by the Remington Factory prior 1868. All the
major firearms manufacturers knew of the patent covering the
breach loading cylinder and the fact that the courts had upheld
the patent in 1862-1863 period and the manufacturers that had
been in violation quickly stopped and negotiated terms with S&W
and Rollin White for damages (S&W was very lenient towards
their competitors). This doesn't mean that small, independent
gunsmiths didn't do some conversions before 1868.

These conversions (which are the ones in .46 rim fire) were done
under that licensing agreement with S&W with the sanction of
Rollin White. The terms were that all work performed was inspected
by S&W and they received a $1.00 fee for each gun converted and
Rollin White got his customary $.25 for each one converted. With
this agreement, they could (and did) stamped their cylinders with
the April 3rd patent date. It is the current thinking that these revolvers
were not from Remington's stock but were supplied by B. Kitteridge
with Remington receiving $2.365 per revolver converted.

"I’m finding more evidence that the American was submitted for trials in .46rf. How many? How long were they made in 45cal?"

This has been thoroughly investigated and has been shown not
to be true. The #3 that was submitted to the 1870 small arms
board headed by General John M. Schofield was not in .46 caliber.
That revolver still exists (serial number 1) in the Springfield
Armory Museum and was examined by Maj. Charles Pate and the
information is in his book on the #3 American. The chambers
and barrel groove diameters are the same as the .44 American
except it is a rim fire. It is thought that this .44 RF was the 44/100
cartridge that S&W was making during the Civil War for the Frank
Wesson single shot rifles (Frank Wesson was Daniel B. Wesson's
younger brother). By the time of the St. Louis small arms board
in 1870, S&W no longer was making cartridges but had spun it
off into a separate company (Horace Smith's son Dexter was one
of the partners running the cartridge business).

Being the same diameter as the .44 American, the .44 Henry cartridge
does not fit but the cylinder walls were heavy enough to allow re-
boring them so that the .44 Henry would fit.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Military Trials

Great post Webb,

What caught my eye during extensive reading/research was that time frame just After the Civil War. Beginning in late 1865, and ending with the final report added June 10,1870.

That date initiated the Final trials in which Smith & Wesson submitted a single 44 caliber Rimfire revolver for trial.

However! The actual pre-trials began in 1866 in which many prototype guns were submitted to the U. S. Army Ordnance Dept that supported using large caliber “cartridge” conversions. The first mention of the .46 Rimfire short was actually to pair up the 1864 Remington split breech carbine in .46 Rimfire. That is letter dated in 1865! As the .46 Rimfire short. Several years prior to the kittridge contract of 1868.

Ok skipping past many hours of reading and research to a specific letter dated Feb. 1867 in which Smith & Wesson states “We are presently negotiating with the U.S. Army to alter their Army revolver to cartridge. At present these pistols can not be altered using the existing cylinder due to the proximity of the chambers”!

This letter proves that Smith & Wesson was planning to convert U S Remingtons to the .46 Rimfire as early as Feb, 1867! Earlier in fact since negotiations in progress? No way you can convert the Remington to a 44 Rimfire. Proximity of the chambers screams boring them larger not smaller. Boring them larger to .46 Rimfire cartridge? Proximity of chambers becomes an issue.

I also read several corespondents referring to the Smith & Wesson pistol 2 years prior to the 1870 “Final Trial” report.

This suggests there were Smith & Wesson trial guns in the hands of the U S Army years prior to 1870. Obviously early Americans.

That’s where I’m at. Still reading when I get the time too. There are lots of holes in the Military records but what remains is amazing stuff! It’s just very hard to read and poorly organized.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


What you say is true on the face of it. S&W was trying to make an
acceptable "Army" revolver during this time. Their first attempt
was a scaled up #2 Army using an interlocking barrel and frame
(like the type of twist to unlock Merwin Hulbert used but without the
extraction feature). They made only one prototype and exhibited
to the Chief Ordinance Officer for feedback. At the same time, S&W
were negotiating with Whitney on making an Army sized pistol for
them (seeing their Factory was already fully engaged on filling the
two year backlog of orders for #1's and #2's). Unfortunately,
Rolling White would not agree and the project was dropped.

The #3 (as we know it) wasn't patented until 1869; first in England
and then in the U.S. The patent model still had the spur trigger
like the #1 and #2 but it had the "break open" design that came
to dominate all of S&W's products in the next decade.

S&W submitted their revolver to the small arms board of 1870
(in St. Louis) somewhat late (sometime in May) and the Board
concluded their investigation and tests on the 23rd of that month.
General Schofield wrote to General Sherman that the report from
that board was completed on June 10, 1870 and was published as
Memorandum #11.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[VincentW]

I have a Remington Arms Rolling Block pistol that is supposed to be the first single shot cartridge pistol adopted by the US Military. At the time the Army was using the old 50/70 in the earliest Trapdoors, Sharps as well as Remington Rolling Blocks. It is chambered in 50/25 and is a bit of a challenge to reload, 56-50 brass and a 240gr. conical lead bullet .512". Looks kind of like a 45ACP on steroids. 25grns of 3F over .030 wad works just fine as recommended. Navy arms brought out some repops a few years ago, I have one in .357 that is fun to shoot.

Outstanding.