586 Locked Up

[pittspilot]

I am having the worst luck with guns lately. I don't even want to go into my Dan Wesson issues.

Shooting my 1983 Nickel 586 (no dash) (also no mod) with Magtech 158 grain .357 and right after a shot, the cylinder locks up. Can't cock it, can't pull the trigger, can't open the cylinder.

I checked the front most screw to see if it was loose, and it is not. So, thoughts? Could it be the lockup that is fixed with the mod? I have never heard of a 586 going down with this, and I understood the problem to occur with the hot loaded 110's, not the moderately loaded 158's.

I am a little nervous futzing with it because the gun it loaded. The hammer is down on a spent round, but there are live ones to follow.

BTW, this also begs a question about shipping it back to S&W, which is what I am likely to do. How do you certify that the gun is not loaded, as required by federal law, when it is, and you cannot unload it?

Thanks for your time.

 

[maccpd]

I think you need to contact Smith and see what they say. Is there any chance that the tip/bullet of one of the other rounds walked forward and are binding the cylinder?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Myself, I would probably fix it myself, don't know yet how, because I'm not sure what's going on. But I've had dozens of Smiths apart for cleaning, parts exchange, and minor repair. If you haven't, I strongly recommend finding a good gunsmith, simply because it's loaded.

If you have some experience with disassembling Smiths, you might post this in the gunsmithing section. Just remember that during every single step of the operation, you have to have that thing pointed where you'll get over it if it discharges.

P.S. Obviously, check first as Mac suggests.

 

[pittspilot]

I don't think its a round walked out. The round under the hammer is spent. I can see that the other rounds are back. I don't know if its my imagination but it seems like the rear of the rounds on the right side of the gun (the side opposite from the side that the cylinder swings out to) are contacting the frame. The fit seems tighter than usual.

I think I will see what Mack says. I also have a good Smith Gunsmith nearby named Nelson Ford.

 

[cp1969]

did the hammer come back to the rebound position? I think the original recall was for primers flowing back into the recoil shield because it was a sloppy fit with the firing pin. The hammer may be stuck in a position that keeps the cylinder from opening.

 

[SAFireman]

I don't think its a round walked out. The round under the hammer is spent. I can see that the other rounds are back. I don't know if its my imagination but it seems like the rear of the rounds on the right side of the gun (the side opposite from the side that the cylinder swings out to) are contacting the frame. The fit seems tighter than usual.

I think I will see what Mack says. I also have a good Smith Gunsmith nearby named Nelson Ford.

What end of the earth are you on? There may be a knowledgeable forum member nearby that can 'unstuck it' for ya....maybe just for a cold drink and some burned beef

 

[murphydog]

Try tightening the ejector rod; it has a left-hand thread, so pointing the muzzle away from you turn it to the right. The unfired rounds should not bind the cylinder unless they went in tight, so it is possible the primer on the fired round "flowed back" and tied up the cylinder, which was the reason for the M recall. Good luck and be careful.

 

[pittspilot]

OK, I got the cylinder out by slight cocking the hammer back and then moving the cylinder forward while pulling back on the cylinder release. Took a bit of force.

The spent primer on the round under the hammer had an "outie" and that seems to be what jammed the gun up because it seems fine now, although I am going to have to test fire it to see.

Is that an incidence of the primer flowing back?

Thanks for everyones' thoughts. Isn't the innerweb wonderful?

 

[flop-shank]

I've been there, done that!

I had this problem when a primer flowed back into the firing pin's hole in my Taurus 605's recoil shield. You, or a gunsmith, need to disassemble the gun's lockwork (be sure you know what you're doing when you remove the side plate, or you'll booger it up), take a punch of the proper diameter and tap the primer back forward and out of the hole. This will free up the gun. After that send it in for the "M stamp".

When this happened to my Taurus, it was the carry ammo that I'd had in the gun for the last six months. The first round tied up the gun, yet people think I'm crazy for carrying more than one revolver.

 

[pittspilot]

Yeah, I think I will be sending it back. The nickle finish has a flake, and it will be a good opportunity to refinish the gun.

I thought the incidences of this flowback on the 586's were extremely rare. Figures that this is the lottery I win.

 

[BUFF]

The problem with the firing pin and bushing was on all 4 models of L frame guns, 586, 686, 581, 681. The cure is to have S&W replace both. They are still doing this under their recall.

There was no specific ammunition loading that caused the problem. I had it with several different factory loads. S&W didn't diagnose the cause for quite a while (the recall mentioned was in 1987). When I had a new 4 incher (s/n prefix ABD ) do this back in 1983-1984, I had the dealer send it in for warranty work. Twice, the factory service center could find nothing out of their specs and returned it, saying they were unable to duplicate the problem. Winchester's Silvertip loading was taking a lot of the blame for it in law enforcement circles. I spoke with the law enforcement sales manager at S&W a couple of times, and with Winchester's counterpart. There was some finger pointing going on. I traded it back to the dealer in January, 1985 for another new 4 incher (s/n prefix AEJ ). This gun never had the primer flow lock-up happen, even with the same ammunition that did it to the early gun, even from the same lot numbers of ammo. The first L frame I bought, a 6 incher I still have, s/n prefix ABB, bought new in February 1983, has never done it, either. A good friend has an early 4 inch blue 586 he bought new. It doesn't do it.

Some early guns would do what yours did, most didn't, blue, nickel or stainless. It can happen with lots of different kinds of ammo, too.

S&W will send you a pre-paid mailing sticker, fix the gun and return it to you for free. It is an offer you should take them up on since yours has the problem.

I think the reason you hear about it with 686's more than 586's, or either fixed sight variant, is because the stainless steel 686 was the hottest seller and was manufactured in much bigger numbers than the other L frames. There are simply more of them out there.

 

[pittspilot]

Buff,

Thanks for the information.

 

[Skeeziks]

Could someone describe to me what happens when a primer "flows back," and is it the fault of the firearm or is it the ammo?

 

[WVfishguy]

I had the same problem as the OP back when the Model 686 first came out in 1980. I traded my Model 28 for the newer 686. I thought it was something I was doing wrong, so I traded the gun in on something else - it was so long ago I can't remember what. The primer actually backed out of the primer hole, and locked up the gun. I fiddled with it and got the cylinder open. Again, I can't remember exactly how.

No one told me about any recalls until many years later.

The wife and I share this Model 586 no dash which we bought a couple years back, and we shoot magnums it it with no problems, so far. It has never had the recall work done:

Also, like the OP, I've had my share of Dan Wesson issues as well. I've had a Monson made 715-2 Dan Wesson, which has not worked right since I bought it new in 1976. I finally got the damn thing fixed a couple years ago, when I finally found a decent gun smith. He said it came from the factory with so many internal burrs it was locking up the mechanism.

I also had two separate Model 29s go out of time so badly they locked up solid. I've had such bad luck with revolvers that, for a long time my main gun was a Ruger Blackhack in .45 Colt. Single actions always go bang!

 

[Skeeziks]

Why are there so many incidents of primers backing out? What causes a primer to back out?
Is it much more common with hand-loaded ammo?

 

[Skeeziks]

Back to the top....

 

[flop-shank]

Skeeziks, since no one has answered, I'll take my best shot. I'm also curious to know what others have learned about this problem.

So far as I know, primer flow back can be caused by two things. The first would be by having a bushing hole that's too big and the pressure bulges out the inadequately supported primer. This is the case with the S&W L frame recall I believe.

The second cause is when the primer hole in the brass is too tight. This is what I ran into. The folks at Remington told me that when the ammo is fired, normally the primer slides back in it's pocket until it hits the recoil shield, or firing pin bushing. As pressure drops, the case releases from the cylinder wall and recoils back, reseating the primer. In my case, the tight pockets inhibited the primer from sliding back properly and the high pressure of the .357 magnum caused the primer to swell back into the firing pin's hole.

FWIW, the fine folks at Remington were great to deal with. Standing behind their product, they replaced my entire case of ammo.

 

[Skeeziks]

Too tight primer pockets not allowing the primer to be re-seated.... I don't know why I didn't think of that for myself.

Thanks again, Flopster.

~ But, I assume this is only a problem when firing .357 mag.?
It doesn't happen with .38 Sp., does it?
Also...my shootin' iron is a 686-4, so I'm safe with the bushing hole.

 

[alaskavett]

Your lucky to have had this experience now as it is a learning situation and not a matter of life or death. Could have been real bad. Kyle

 

[flop-shank]

Too tight primer pockets not allowing the primer to be re-seated.... I don't know why I didn't think of that for myself.

Actually, I think the primer bulges and flows before it can start sliding.

Thanks again, Flopster.

You're most welcome!

~ But, I assume this is only a problem when firing .357 mag.?
It doesn't happen with .38 Sp., does it?
Also...my shootin' iron is a 686-4, so I'm safe with the bushing hole.

I'm no authority on this stuff, but I would think it would take some very serious doing to have such trouble with .38 ammo. The load that caused my lock up was R357M1 (Rem. .357 125 gr. SJHP). A load like that runs at much higher pressure and would use a case full (maybe a compressed charge) of slow burning powder as well a magnum primer. It's just a whole different animal.

Also of interest was that forum member Nitesite had some ammo from the same lot. He had previously started a thread about the very high velocity he got with his 6" Ruger with that load. IIRC, it was nicely over 1600 fps. and around 730 foot pounds The folks at Remington tested my problem ammo and said that the velocity was out of spec./too high. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pressure is out of tolerance, but I certainly wonder if it was as well.