638 shoots 2-3" right. Will S&W fix it?

[teflon97239]

What would you guys do? S&W Airweight +P snub (shrouded hammer).

At first I assumed I just had to learn to shoot it better (with that tiny grip, light weight and snappy recoil).

But left hand, right hand, both hands, from a rest, double and single-action - a number of competent shooters I know all make tight groups about 2-3 inches right at 7 yards with this pistol.

I'd assume this would be a warranty fix if the gun were brand new, but I've had it for 4+ years now. Recently took it to a smith who says it needs to be "re-indexed." He doesn't want to do it and "tweak the soft frame."

Will S&W do anything about this? Anyone here had a similar experience?

Thanks in advance for tips/advice.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

2"-3" off at 7 yds. with a J-frame isn't bad. This is not a revolver designed for use as a target gun, it's a self defense piece, and being off by that small margin isn't something I'd really worry that much about. I agree with what I think your gunsmith was trying to tell you - to be dead on, your barrel needs to be turned slightly to the left. In olden days, gunsmiths would often use a lead babbit to smack the front sight to slightly bend it. A cost effective solution might be to install a set of laser grips that you could sight in to be dead on target. I like the Crimson Trace LG-405 grips, and have them installed on all of my Airweight J-frames - including my EDC - a Model 38-0 and a Model 638-1.

Oh, to answer your final question, no, I doubt S&W would consider this a warranty repair. Even on your own nickel, I doubt the factory would index the barrel for you.

Regards,

Dave

 

[colt_saa]

Welcome to the Forum

What would you guys do? S&W Airweight +P snub (shrouded hammer).

At first I assumed I just had to learn to shoot it better (with that tiny grip, light weight and snappy recoil).

But left hand, right hand, both hands, from a rest, double and single-action - a number of competent shooters I know all make tight groups about 2-3 inches right at 7 yards with this pistol.

I'd assume this would be a warranty fix if the gun were brand new, but I've had it for 4+ years now. Recently took it to a smith who says it needs to be "re-indexed." He doesn't want to do it and "tweak the soft frame."

Will S&W do anything about this? Anyone here had a similar experience?

Thanks in advance for tips/advice.

If you have a question about what Smith and Wesson will do for you, the best thing is to call them and ask them. You will have your answer in a matter of minutes. Here on the Forum you will only have speculation as to what Smith and Wesson will do.

Your local "smith" simply did not want to work on your revolver. Odds are he does not own the correct tools for the job in question or he has doubts about his skill set. The chance that he will "tweak the soft frame" is about ZERO if a proper frame wrench is used, and by firearms standards, Smith and Wesson frames are not "soft."

I have a model 60 locked into a frame wrench on the work bench right now for a barrel change. This job, or yours, can be properly accomplished in under an hour of shop time, baring no unexpected problems.

 

[M29since14]

A long time ago someone at S&W told me they used 3-inches at 10-yards as the pass-fail criteria for zero. I'm sure they didn't test each one so I suppose that criteria was for guns that were returned for inspection and correction. I sent them an airweight that shot 4-5 inches left and they did "reclock" it. If your gun has a lifetime warranty I would ask to send it back. I have to respectfully disagree on the phone call. I get reasonable answers about half the time with a phone call. I would rather just send in the gun and hope for the best.

 

[chief38]

IMHO 2" - 3" off POA at 7 yards (21 ft.) is a moot point! You won't be carefully aiming should you ever need your 638 in the heat of a battle. The M638 is meant for CCW as a Hideout gun and is meant for close up work. While most 2" Chief's Specials I have encountered over 40 years have shot within 2" - 3" at 50 feet, I suppose it could be off a bit. While we all want our CCW's to shoot POA = POI at ANY distance, for a 2" 638 I would not be as picky. You also might try different ammo as that sometimes is a factor in accuracy. Personally if the gun is tight, within all specs and has a descent action, I'd probably leave well enough alone as I'd be afraid in their "attempt" to adjust it they would screw something else up.

If this was a 4", 6" barreled gun (to be used for Target shooting) and was off that much at 7 yards then yes I'd send it back. Again, unless I am missing the point of your 638 2"bbl. it is a last ditch at SD and in the scheme of things, at 2 or 5 feet (most common scenario) 2" won't mean a hill of beans.

You don't state what ammo you are using but MOST Chief's shoot most accurately with 158 grain bullets. Try them and see where it shoots.

Another method of "adjusting" the sight picture is to carefully file the rear sight track to "move" the front sight over a bit. This is not a difficult procedure and on a Stainless gun there is no Blueing or Nickel to worry about. I have done this on other fixed sight guns with excellent results and if done properly and carefully it's just about unnoticeable. I prefer this method rather than having the Factory remove the barrel and replace it because there is no chance of cracking the frame this way. As long as the adjustment is relatively minor, it works like a charm!

 

[gnystrom]

I may disagree here. I think 2"-3" off at 7 yd. is a big deal. I want, and expect my snubbies to shoot at POA.

Have you checked the barrel to make sure it is not clocked? I will finish my thought here. I had a customer that had a Ruger revolver barrel shortened a couple of inches by a very reputable gunsmith. He proudly brought it in to our range and it too shot left by a few inches. I looked at the gun and sure enough the barrel was not correctly installed causing the front sight to be off line. Back to the gunsmith who was embarrassed by this very obvious mistake and the adjustment corrected the problem.

 

[rockquarry]

You might try several ammos and bullet weights. There are often point of impact differences in both elevation and windage among the ammos. Also, if your level of proficiency allows, try all the ammo at 15 yards and 25 yards. You might be surprised at the point of impact. This may also be an easier fix than having gunsmithing work done.

I'm aware of the argument that these are not match guns and should only be fired at very close targets. That's not true. These guns will shoot remarkably well, but comparatively, are quite difficult to master. Shooting at very close range really only serves to mask our shortcomings.

Should you find a load that shoots pretty much to point of aim at 25 yards, you'll see a 3" windage deviation at 7 yds. to be of little consequence. However, if the deviation becomes a foot at 25 yards, then perhaps some gunsmithing might be necessary.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I shoot my Mdl 60 at 2"-3" at 10 yards.

The other day I was at the 100 yard range and within 5 shots hit the metal support post that are used to hang the targets at full range.(standing free hand)

All good...

 

[chief38]

I may disagree here. I think 2"-3" off at 7 yd. is a big deal. I want, and expect my snubbies to shoot at POA.

Have you checked the barrel to make sure it is not clocked? I will finish my thought here. I had a customer that had a Ruger revolver barrel shortened a couple of inches by a very reputable gunsmith. He proudly brought it in to our range and it too shot left by a few inches. I looked at the gun and sure enough the barrel was not correctly installed causing the front sight to be off line. Back to the gunsmith who was embarrassed by this very obvious mistake and the adjustment corrected the problem.

I agree with you that it SHOULD shoot to the point of aim but unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. If the owner wants to risk them cracking the frame and possibly receiving a new gun, then by all means send it back - but no guarantees that a new one will be any better. If I could simply correct the discrepancy by filing the rear sight slightly I might do that. A EDC CCW should be a tool and so I would not worry that I slightly altered it - just that it shoots where I want.

In the past I have sent items back (not just guns) for readjustment and /or replacement and the experience was not good for me. If the 2 " discrepancy is all that is the problem and I was upset by that I'd use a file. I feel it is a "****-shoot" sending it in and I'd be worried about getting something worse than what I sent in. YMMV

 

[gnystrom]

I agree. but I would be very curious if the barrel was installed correctly. An easy check by the owner. If it is off center I personally would send it in. If they damage it, you get a new gun. Not bad in my book.

 

[Shooter6br]

638 for me

Mine isnt a record holder but I can keep all shots in the black at 9 yards. Try painting the front sight orange (for me) and back sight black with marker

 

[flintsghost]

Chief38 perhaps has overlooked the fact that the 638 has an aluminum frame that was in some Hard Anodized clear finished in the very first few and matte nickel plated after that. You can file on the sight track but you will go right through the nickel or clear anodize to bare bones aluminum...NOT stainless steel.

While S&W may be able to tweak the barrel a bit to move the front sight one way or the other, frames do get bent or cracked even by them, using the correct tools. They will in those cases replace your gun with a new one. Do you want that? I don't own any guns with MIM parts or with locks. Imagine sending in a pre-R model 60 and getting back a MIM/lock version. I would be upset with that, wouldn't you?

 

[teflon97239]

Great input all around guys - thanks.

To put a finer point on things:

- My other pistols are for accurate target shooting. This 1" barreled piece is for easy (legal) concealment and emergency self-defense, which will 95% probably not involve sighting anyway. I do, by the way, practice close range "point and shoot" double-action drills for that very reason. So does my gal with her Shield 9.

- I tested and got these consistent results with 5-6 different ammos to preclude "repairing" a weapon to work well with just one particular brand, weight and projectile.

- Will phone or write S&W and ask if this is something they want a chance to rectify. Ruger was very responsive with a faulty pistol, replacing it and then repairing the malfunctioning replacement. (By the way, I learned that UPS will ship and receive weps via their hubs, just not through their retail storefronts in strip malls.)

- I also respectfully submit that while barrel length affects muzzle velocity, it does not IMHO affect POI. More likely, it is a super short sight radius that magnifies operator error. So I was careful to take several broad samples before finally concluding that POI is consistently 2" right at 7 yd. Hence coming to this realization years, not weeks, into owning the pistol. I should've worked with it more right at first if/when any new gun warranty might have still applied. Maybe it still does if the barrel was installed crooked.

- If S&W tells me to take a hike, my home-brewed solution will be to VERY slowly and carefully file the left side of the broad fixed front sight (there's plenty there to work with) at the range until my average POI comes left an inch or two - into the bullseye where it belongs when carefully sighted.

 

[chief38]

Chief38 perhaps has overlooked the fact that the 638 has an aluminum frame that was in some Hard Anodized clear finished in the very first few and matte nickel plated after that. You can file on the sight track but you will go right through the nickel or clear anodize to bare bones aluminum...NOT stainless steel.

While S&W may be able to tweak the barrel a bit to move the front sight one way or the other, frames do get bent or cracked even by them, using the correct tools. They will in those cases replace your gun with a new one. Do you want that? I don't own any guns with MIM parts or with locks. Imagine sending in a pre-R model 60 and getting back a MIM/lock version. I would be upset with that, wouldn't you?

Nah, I did not miss that. Since Aluminum alloy won't rust I still think adjusting the sight track is a viable option. The only one I would NOT do this on is a blued or blackened gun which I doubt his is. IMHO for a dedicated carry gun, function tops looks. Not that I would be haphazard about it, but I have done this on a couple of Revolvers over the years and unless you were informed, I doubt you would even notice it. One of the guns I've done this on was a Nickel plated steel SAA. Since I was using it for SASS matches accuracy was of the utmost importance. After I filed one side of the sight track and polished it, you would never know I had done so and it was dead on. High polished steel looks so much like Nickel the eye can't really discern the difference. The most important thing was that the gun shot POA = POI and since it was not a Colt I didn't really care. When I sold the gun years later the buyer didn't even notice or see it even when I informed him.

BECAUSE it is an alloy frame gun I would be more fearful of them cracking the Frame by trying to adjust it. 2" at 21 feet should be easily correctable with the method I have used. While I have not done this on an Aluminum gun, I would still consider it rather than trying to adjust the factory fit barrel if it is relatively straight and plumb. Aluminum can be made dull, satin or high polished to match and if necessary can be clear coated if desired.

 

[teflon97239]

Like you Chief, I don't regard this as a pristine collector piece like a beautiful vintage... anything. It's just a tool - with a few years of noticeable wear and tear on it already. No big deal to me if I add a few more scuffs as I "adjust" the fixed sights to make POA and POI the same.

I've been picturing all along that I might shave the left side of the front sight blade to move POI left. But looking closely at it now, I see there's a lot less metal to remove in opening up the right side of the rear sight track. That front sight is nearly an inch long!

So if I elect to repair it (instead of shipping it to S&W to twist the barrel), is there any particular brand, size, shape of file I should use? What do you recommend? I really only get one chance to do it right.

 

[PzKfW5]

I've had several Smiths shoot left or right consistently at close range. When I looked carefully, the front sight on those guns wasn't straight vertical. The barrel had been under or over turned. Send it back to S&W. It they crack it, new gun for you.

 

[scooter123]

Something you need to realize is that 7 yards is quite close. Folks constantly think that shooting left or right is always a sighting error but don't consider the amount of error that would be required to throw the point of impact off by 2 to 3 inches. On a compact revolver such as your 639 the degree of error required to cause a 2.5 inch shift in the POI is about 1/16 inch. While that doesn't sound like that much a barrel that was over or under rotated by this much would be quite obvious.

My conclusion is that it's a shooter related problem. I know, you claimed that you and other good shooters have all shot this pistol with the same result. However, one of the best shooters out there, Hickok45, tends to shoot right with certain small pistols. I'm also a pretty decent shooter and I also tend to shoot to the right with small pistols unless I pay really close attention and stage the trigger in super slow motion. Since I am not going to shoot in super slow motion in a Defense setting I have simply trained myself to aim slightly to the left.

 

[teflon97239]

Something you need to realize is that 7 yards is quite close. Folks constantly think that shooting left or right is always a sighting error but don't consider the amount of error that would be required to throw the point of impact off by 2 to 3 inches. On a compact revolver such as your 639 the degree of error required to cause a 2.5 inch shift in the POI is about 1/16 inch. While that doesn't sound like that much a barrel that was over or under rotated by this much would be quite obvious.

My conclusion is that it's a shooter related problem. I know, you claimed that you and other good shooters have all shot this pistol with the same result. However, one of the best shooters out there, Hickok45, tends to shoot right with certain small pistols. I'm also a pretty decent shooter and I also tend to shoot to the right with small pistols unless I pay really close attention and stage the trigger in super slow motion. Since I am not going to shoot in super slow motion in a Defense setting I have simply trained myself to aim slightly to the left.

"Something YOU need to realize..."

I didn't feel like training myself to "aim slightly to the left" like "you claimed" you did. Your "conclusion is that it is a shooter related problem" (all your words) is buffalo dust.

Anyway, back to facts, S&W paid FedEx shipping both ways, evaluated the weapon, adjusted barrel alignment and returned it within 4 weeks, no charge.

Inferred expert advice is so much better when it's correct. And easier to digest (right or wrong), without any uncalled-for condescending arrogance.

Thanks to all who contributed constructive advice. While it's still not a target piece by any means, and was never meant to be, my repaired pistol now puts reasonably tight groups on bullseye with a steady hand - vs. 2" right like it did before S&W repaired it for free.

S&W Customer Service number is (800) 331-0852. Guy on the phone was excellent. Thanks for weighing in fellers!

 

[PzKfW5]

Glad S&W took care of it.

Don't accept substandard just because other people have.

"Something YOU need to realize..."

I didn't feel like training myself to "aim slightly to the left" like "you claimed" you did. Your "conclusion is that it is a shooter related problem" (all your words) is buffalo dust.

Anyway, back to facts, S&W paid FedEx shipping both ways, evaluated the weapon, adjusted barrel alignment and returned it within 4 weeks, no charge.

Inferred expert advice is so much better when it's correct. And easier to digest (right or wrong), without any uncalled-for condescending arrogance.

Thanks to all who contributed constructive advice. While it's still not a target piece by any means, and was never meant to be, my repaired pistol now puts reasonably tight groups on bullseye with a steady hand - vs. 2" right like it did before S&W repaired it for free.

S&W Customer Service number is (800) 331-0852. Guy on the phone was excellent. Thanks for weighing in fellers!

 

[Tom S.]

All manufacturers that I'm aware of have "acceptable standards". That doesn't mean we have to accept them. For example, the big three automakers will tell you that some engine oil consumption is standard. I've even heard as much as a quart per 1,000 miles, but I would be really mad if I had a vehicle that performed at that rate, the same as if I had a J frame that was 2" off at just 7 yards.

Glad S&W felt the same way and fixed it for you! I'm betting it took them all of 20 minutes, if that.