686-6 trigger and timing issues

[bestagents]

I bought a used 686-6 and shoot it in a weekly PPC league. So I've put some 2,000+ rounds thru it.

this year it started giving me issues..erratic trigger pull, as in every so often (and never the same round count apart) the trigger would get VERY hard to pull.

It would it seemed, not fire at times..put in a longer firing pin, cleaned it, polished things...no improvement.

Then I noticed when dry firing (no cases/dummy rounds) between matches that if I tilted the gun 90 degrees to the left (to better see the cylinder movement) it would not advance at alll - trigger and hammer both worked just fine...Hmmm...

So I have another 686-6 (snubby) and I moved ALL the moving parts from one to the other except the cylinder - so hammer, hand, spring, trigger, crane - all of it. The snubby got better (smoother) and the 6" 686 just about was un fireable - very stiff and difficult to pull the trigger. not consistent in trigger pull.

So I ordered a new extractor/star and oversize hand. Since I ASSUME these guns are all CNC the parts should drop in...I've not tried the hand (hate changing the hand spring!) I just tried the extractor..in both guns. Neither will work (cylinder locks on next chamber long before trigger travel is over or hammer is back).

So...
I'm a bit baffled. Yes, I had the gun to a smith to work on the trigger..he found nothing wrong. OK, bad choice of gunsmith I guess.

I've since read that the extractor needs fitted..how? How does one file where the hand contacts it?

My next plan is to put the oversize hand in and the original (marked and worn looking) extractor back in and see what I get. I read about fitting of the hand since turning the gun seems to have allowed the stock hand to not engage at all this may be a fix.

Any links to anything helpful?

Yes, I can send the gun back to SW and may yet do that, but figured it would be a simple fix. I"m very mechanically inclined and would rather learn to deal with this issue myself if at all possible.

 

[armorer951]

The parts you describe are not "drop in" but are hand fit. The new extractor/ratchets will have to be cut and fit by hand. The oversized hand may not fix the problem, and may in fact just make the problem worse. Internal parts may or may not swap from one revolver to another and work properly. Even with today's manufacturing methods and standards, many parts are still fit by hand to each frame.

Since you are experiencing issues that you are unfamiliar with diagnosing or repairing, I would consider sending the gun in for repair. Your activity may actually damage the gun further, and any repair issues should be covered under the S&W warranty.

 

[Tom S.]

You know the old saying about "assume". No, even though the parts are CNC machined, they don't often drop in and fit correctly. Even CNC parts vary slightly as cutters get dull. That's why S&W makes an over sized hand in the first place, because it's not a part that can be made to drop in.

It's your gun, and you can of course do whatever you wish, but I'll tell you this: I've spent a lot of time on the inside of S&W revolvers and timing is one issue I will not even consider trying. Even if I was trained to do them, I'm not sure I would try it.

 

[scooter123]

FYI the 686-6 is covered by a LIFETIME WARRANTY. Yeah, technically it's only for the first owner but S&W almost never asks and they have no means of telling if you are the original owner or not. I would suggest that you put everything back as it was when you first got the revolver and then contact S&W about having it serviced under warranty. Because right not you are meddling in areas that should only be done by a factory trained and qualified Armorer. Quite simply keep tinkering and odds are quite good that you'll do enough damage to void any warranty consideration and that can only be corrected by the factory.

BTW, while they aren't typically installed in the L or K frame revolvers the N frame models feature a pin inside the rebound spring that acts as a trigger stop and if it is installed backwards it can cause the symptoms you have described.

 

[bestagents]

there's what looks like a connecting rod pin from a car engine in there..seems to only go in one way.

Dry fired 3 pistols today (686-4, the 2" and the bad 6") and the bad 6" definitely has a timing issue - the lock on the frame/bottom of cylinder isn't the same as the other two. and much much harder/heavier trigger pull.

I'll swap the guts back and see what change/improvement occurs.

I find it sorta odd that it's the one frame things don't work in correctly...so yeah, a frame issue will go back to smith.

I see on their website where to send it..how best to send it? I don'thave the nice blue case it came in ( have one from a MP9...)..USPS, UPS, fedex??

I know last time I tried sending something via UPS (a shotgun press) they refused it..I had to lie (machine parts) to get them to take it...I don't want to do that and then have an issue and not be able to collect on the insurance. Yes, they do occassionally lose things.

 

[armorer951]

Contact S&W, explain the problem, and they will send a pre-paid label. 1-800-331-0852

 

[H Richard]

Fitting an extractor is NOT a job for someone that is not trained to do so. It takes a skilled qualified S&W gunsmith to do it. Send it to S&W to get it done correctly. (And they may just find other problems within your gun you have overlooked).

 

[Fastbolt]

Stop switching parts back and forth before one of two undesirable things happen ...

You mix up the parts and don't get the right ones back in the right gun.

Or, you cause damage to parts which might not provide for normal functioning even when they get put back in the right gun.

Yes, S&W makes oversize hands for repair use. Sometimes they aren't the answer, though, and the trick is to be able to recognize that when it happens. Their use can present an opportunity for yet other problems to occur. Personally, I don't like the idea of taking a file to the frame's hand window (even on the correct side of the window, as that's permanent). I'd rather find a hand that's the best overall fit, and then recut a new extractor, if need be.

No, extractors aren't "drop-in", and have to be cut for any particular frame. S&W makes a hand-cutting tool for revolver armorers to use. It's essentially a steel lever welded to the appropriate trigger (frame size), and into which a "cutting hand" is installed. When the tool is installed in the frame (which means enough dummy rounds are also in the cylinder charge holes), functioning the lever cuts each ratchet so it is within spec for that gun. Any further adjustments are done by hand, using a file.

I only got the chance to practice cutting a single new extractor in my factory revolver class, so later on I ordered some new extractors to use for some practice on my own. I've only cut and fit less than half a dozen of them, and I'd just as soon not have to do it anymore, if possible.

FWIW, since the new extractors aren't held aligned by pins, they're intended to be held in proper alignment with cases in the cylinder charge holes. That's why dummy rounds (or properly sized cases) are used when the ratchets are cut. When a revolver armorer checks the carry-up ("timing"), they're told to do so when at least 2-3 dummy rounds/cases are in charge holes, as that's the only way to get a true reading of the carry-up, with the extractor held in optimal alignment with the hand (as it would be during actual live ammunition in the charge holes).

Sure, properly cut & fit extractors can still demonstrate good carry-up even with empty charge holes, but if there's any question of the carry-up being within acceptable spec, then 2-3 charge holes ought to be filled with dummy rounds to hold the extractor in the correct position.

I've met a couple S&W revolver armorers who would rather send a gun to the factory for that sort of work (like I've met a couple 3rd gen pistols armorers who didn't want to replace and fit/file extractors on guns, but would rather have the factory do it).

Let the factory correct whatever's not within spec for your gun, and stop yielding to the temptation to fiddle with it. At some point you may unintentionally do something to the gun that the factory may consider to be an owner-induced problem, and may not want to cover under warranty.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

That makes 2 of us!
Qc

 

[bountyhunter]

this year it started giving me issues..erratic trigger pull, as in every so often (and never the same round count apart) the trigger would get VERY hard to pull.

could be a loose ejector rod.

 

[iPac]

I would send it back, as the warranty is just too good to pass up.

If you really want to learn, get an appropriate shop manual and read it. I would go with the Jerry K. manual, and I believe it has been updated for the 'stuff' they put out today.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Then I noticed when dry firing (no cases/dummy rounds) between matches that if I tilted the gun 90 degrees to the left (to better see the cylinder movement) it would not advance at alll - trigger and hammer both worked just fine...Hmmm...

So I have another 686-6 (snubby) and I moved ALL the moving parts from one to the other except the cylinder - so hammer, hand, spring, trigger, crane - all of it.

I know you said you swapped all the parts... how is the hand spring tension on the trouble set up. Sounds like it's falling away from the extractor when you hold it just right.

 

[Dennis]

SEND IT BACK!!!

 

[bestagents]

I def seems weaker when compared side by side. I had it off at one point when cleaning/polishing the parts (no stoning).

PITA to get it back on. Compariing it to the 'good' setup is on my to-do list.

Odds are good I'll be sending it back,but want to play a bit more.

As a pro mechanic for over 15 years I can keep the parts straight as to which gun they came out of.

What I don't really know, since I bought both used, is what may have been done to them by previous owners.

I know you said you swapped all the parts... how is the hand spring tension on the trouble set up. Sounds like it's falling away from the extractor when you hold it just right.

 

[gwpercle]

The first "gunsmith" you brought it to , the one that found nothing wrong , was not really a S&W revolver gunsmith.
If you do not wish to send it to S&W , check out Clark Custom Guns , they have done excellent work on S&W revolvers for years.
OVER 66 YEARS OF CUSTOM GUN EXCELLENCE - Clark Custom Guns
Jerry Miculek , a pretty good shooter , married into the Clark family and is part of the business. Jim Clark and Jim Clark ,Jr. are also famous shooters.... any gun that comes through their shop will be properly repaired to your specifications.
Gary