9mm 124 LRN seating depth? M&P9c is short!

[ShrinkMD]

I was determining the longest OAL I could load a 124 gr LRN (Dardascast, bevel base, single lube band) and I got different max OAL which would allow the loaded dummy round to drop neatly into the barrel.

I had a range from 1.111 in an old 5906TSW, 1.077 in a 952-2, and 1.046 in an M&P9c. According to Lyman 49th Ed, the minimum OAL should be 1.060, but in a different shaped bullet of the same weight.

Do I need to work up different loads for each gun? How much of a difference in pressure/expected velocity is there between 1.046 and 1.111? Has anyone else had difficulty loading for the M&P9c?

I would love to be able to load one OAL which all pistols would feed nicely, but I can already hear the chorus of replies saying that the best accuracy (especially for the target gun) would only come by loading to the max allowable OAL for each gun Am I assuming correctly?

Would I be safe starting at 5.0 gr of Power Pistol at the 1.046 OAL, or should I start lower?

 

[sourdough44]

Maybe I can't help but I've been on a 9mm kick lately. I loaded up some 115 grn plated & some Remington 124 grn HP bullets. The 115 I loaded to 1.10 length & the 124 to 1.08 col. I was using win 231 with the 115 but my 1st charge was to weak(4.1) to reliably cycle each time. The few 124 I shot did fine with H Universal powder. I plan to try some Tightgroup with some 115s next.

 

[handgunner356]

I can't see loading any 9mm RN shorter than 1.100". I would think the pressures would be too much. Normally feeding isn't a problem for 9mm unless they get too long and won't feed in the mag tube. Target shooters usually want the bullet to touch or engage the rifling so there is no jump. I have a 122gr LTC flat nose bullet that I load right at 1.050" but not any round nose.

 

[ShrinkMD]

I will try again with fresh brass and bullets (maybe the tip got deformed) and report back.

 

[OKFC05]

I would love to be able to load one OAL which all pistols would feed nicely, but I can already hear the chorus of replies saying that the best accuracy (especially for the target gun) would only come by loading to the max allowable OAL for each gun Am I assuming correctly?

From my experience with loading lead 124gr 9mm, your load choice seems incongrous. On one hand, you are worrying about seating the bullet as long as possible (a secondary effect at best), yet wanting to load it hot (which in my experience is not optimum for 9mm lead).
With 9mm lead, I load it to clear the rifling on my shortest chamber and load over the threshold to reliably operate the pistol that requires the most power. Then I use it for all the guns.
For me, the jacketed give better accuracy than the lead in 9mm, especially when driven hard. The lead 124gr 9mm does make a nice economical plinking round.

 

[Rule3]

See my thread here: I was just going through the same thing with a CZ75 B. Out of all my 9mm handguns this is the only one that has to be different, It is only a problem with lead bullets as they are not as pointed as the FMJ or plated.

Mark the bullet with some chalk and drop it in the barrel, you will see where it is hanging up. Just keep adjusting till the dummy rounds seat properly and pop in and out. If you have to load them short, lower the min powder a bit.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/119483-oal-cz-75-9mm-125gr-lrn-way-shorter.html

 

[ShrinkMD]

Well, I just measured a Magtech 124 gr FMJ and it was 1.152 I will make up some new dummy rounds and try again.

I am hoping to make two loads. One which will come close to factory spec for more realistic practice, and also to find the perfect target load for my 952. I am willing to load a different batch just for that pistol. Obviously the bullet was deformed or something wasn't quite right when I measured the other day, so I will try again.

 

[handgunner356]

Usually those two don't go together very well. I push 122-125gr lead to around 1050fps to match factory loads and find medium burn powders like Unigue or Universal work best. For target I keep them closer to 900fps with faster powders like Red Dot or Clays.

 

[ShrinkMD]

"Usually those two don't go together very well"

Which two things don't go together well? Many places on the net seem to say that Power Pistol is one of the best powders for 9mm loading. Is that reputation only for jacketed rounds?

 

[Rule3]

"Usually those two don't go together very well"

Which two things don't go together well? Many places on the net seem to say that Power Pistol is one of the best powders for 9mm loading. Is that reputation only for jacketed rounds?

You shouldn't use the OAL of a factory round to use for a hand load with entirely different bullet. If you measure 10 different factory loads you will probably get 10 different OAL.

The OAL of a lead bullet is way different than a JMJ or Plated due to shape.

Try what had been discussed with your lead bullets and start with the min powder charge or even a tad less if the OAL is real short.

Alliant does not list a recipe for PP and lead bullets.

 

[handgunner356]

I actually was refering to Match/Target loads and Defense/Practice loads using the same bullet. I guess I would work the load for target use and then bump it up to a full power load. But then it might be hard to match my POI/POA of my factory load that I'm trying to duplicate.

 

[ShrinkMD]

Remeasured today

Well, I'm not sure what I was doing wrong the other day, but the new numbers make a whole lot more sense!

In the 5906TSW, it looks like 1.126" functions fine. Same for the 952 (although I did not pull the barrel to check again, what a pain to get it back in!) The M&P9c measured at 1.105.

I was able to chamber the 1.125 round in the M&P9c, but it was difficult to extract the dummy round pulling the slide back. Obviously if it was fired this would not be a problem! Although I am somewhat concerned that it could possibly lead to firing slightly out of battery if the bullet is sticking into the lands. Is this a real problem? The slide seemed to slam all the way in without a hitch.

I made up some rounds at 1.111 and it chambered in the M&P9c and came out ok as well.

I guess I will get to work making up the 1.125 rounds and start at Hornady's minimum of Power Pistol at 4.3, and whatever the minimum Bullseye charge is as well, and work up in 0.1 increments for accuracy and velocity.

At some point when I actually finish and chronograph these I will post some data.

 

[handgunner356]

It would be unlikely any of the three guns you mention would fire out of battery. Having the lead touch or engage the rifling slightly shouldn't cause a problem unless it's enough to keep the gun from chambering the round.

 

[ShrinkMD]

Weird problem with my press

I was trying to load my first batch this afternoon, and hit a lot of trouble with my die adjustments. Prior to setting up the powder charge, I had them all dialed in to make perfect dummy rounds. Then, once I started putting cases into the press (Hornady LNL AP, Hornady dies) my OAL's were coming out too long, and the taper crimp die wasn't getting the job done. It was almost as if the press wasn't going all the way down, even though I made sure that the handle was completely pulled down. I was in the process of readjusting the dies to seat and crimp a bit more when I ran out of time. And lost two primers! Drat.

I remember someone saying that 9mm is not a completely straight walled case, and that they might need a drop of lube, even in a carbide die, to make the process go smoothly. The sizer die definitely feels different than my 357, 40, or 45 dies. Would that help a bit?

I'm really not looking forward to tearing the garage apart looking for those primers...

 

[Rule3]

As to the lube part of your question. I discussed this in another thread, some agree, some do not. I use the Lee lube which is water soluble. As per Lees recommendations it can be diluted 10 parts water or (rubbing alcohol) which I use to 1 part lube. Mix it, shake it in a little spray bottle.

I give one little "spritz" to about 100 empty cases and shake around. To me it makes a world of difference even with carbide dies. I use it on 380, 9, 40, 45, 38, 357,44.
Do not worry if you hit all the cases as a little stays on the dies and will work for 2-3 without any lube. Iy will leave just a few white speckles on the brass. Any more and you used too much but it will not hurt.

Makes everything slide smooth and easy.

Lee Case Sizing Lube 2 oz Tube - MidwayUSA

 

[Wee Hooker]

Wow, the M&P9C's are finicky

Made my first attempt to reload for my M&P9C this AM using 115gr LRN (from Missouri Bullet) . Held my test batch to about 1.125 OAL which is what my factory ball ammo measures. Loaded 3 of these under 2 factory loads just to get a feel for recoil and POI as compared to factory. Two factory rounds shot as expected but the first reloaded round that got chambered LOCKED the gun up SOLID. If wasn't firing or allowing me to rack the slide at all. ( Like the bullet was stuck in the rifling.)
Used a wooden rod up the barrel to knock the round back which released the slide. Sure enough there were just a trace of rifling marks on the ogive. I close inspection of these bullets, it seems like they are more rounded ( full figured ;-) than the pointier factory ball ammo. So while OAL was similar, the bullet was contacting the rifling sooner and keeping the gun ever so slightly out of battery.
Backed the seating die down to 1.112 and tried a few more. She spits these shorter rounds out like a dream.
Then, as part of the same experiment, I successfully ran some 147gr conical lead loads through the 9C and they cycled fine despite their ( relatively huge) OAL of 1.150. The difference with the 147's being that the bullet shape was slender and does not contact the rifling.

I bring this up to enforce the point that OAL is not the only thing to watch for.
hth

 

[ShrinkMD]

Yeah, it is interesting that you had the same problem with a different manufacture's LRN bullets. Luckily, 1.111 is still well above what a minimum OAL should be for other similar listed bullets. So we should be ok. I am going to try loading 1.125 for my other pistol which takes them that length, and then maybe make a special run just for the M&P9c and see how they shoot in the other guns as well. Too many projects!

Also, has anyone noticed that CBC 9mm brass is inconsistent junk? I've been loading their 45acp with no problems at all, but their 9mm isn't flowing smoothly through the press. I will try some WIN or FC brass tomorrow.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Yeah, it is interesting that you had the same problem with a different manufacture's LRN bullets. Luckily, 1.111 is still well above what a minimum OAL should be for other similar listed bullets. So we should be ok. I am going to try loading 1.125 for my other pistol which takes them that length, and then maybe make a special run just for the M&P9c and see how they shoot in the other guns as well. Too many projects!

Well the only other 9mm I still own is a Ruger Sp101 revolver. That eats anything. As with all my reloading, my goal is to come up with one load that I can stick in any gun I own and get good results. Got 38 spl and 45 acp down, working 9mm now . Still, I think my "go to" load will end up with a bullet with a slimmer profile like a 125 gr CFP.
Best of luck!

 

[ShrinkMD]

Oops, I posted a new question here, and then I realized we already had this thread going.

I made some 1.102" and they did not feed well in the M&P9c. According to Hornady and Lyman (which show slightly different looking 124 gr LRN bullets) they list 1.060 or 1.090 for min OAL. I will try reseating some of the batch I already made up at shorter OAL and chronograph those to make sure that the pressure isn't going up too much.

I am assuming that there is a safe OAL which will still feed and function well in the M&P9c.

 

[H Richard]

I load the Stonewall Bullet 125 gr LRN to 1.115" and it functions perfectly in both my 940 revolver and 469 Semi Auto. With RCBS dies I taper crimp .003" and use Win primers. Chrono's just over 900 fps with 3.8 gr. 231.