9mm ammo question

[tocohillsguy]

I typically run 124 grain Speer Gold Dot for self defense. I use the +P in the full size pistols and regular load in the compacts. I find my accuracy suffers with the +P in the compacts. Perhaps that will improve with time. In any event here is my question. I now have a small cache of my father's old 9mm ammo. Most of it is Remington hollow point 115 grain R9MM1. Also a couple of boxes of Hornady's Frontier Cartridges and a few rounds of PMC. Is any of this suitable for self defense or are the newer rounds sufficiently superior that these should be used only for target practice?

 

[tocohillsguy]

I typically run 124 grain Speer Gold Dot for self defense. I use the +P in the full size pistols and regular load in the compacts. I find my accuracy suffers with the +P in the compacts. Perhaps that will improve with time. In any event here is my question. I now have a small cache of my father's old 9mm ammo. Most of it is Remington hollow point 115 grain R9MM1. Also a couple of boxes of Hornady's Frontier Cartridges and a few rounds of PMC. Is any of this suitable for self defense or are the newer rounds sufficiently superior that these should be used only for target practice?

 

[safearm]

I carry GD 124 +P in my full-size guns just like you do and feel perfectly comfortable with that round. Both NYPD and Denver PD use it as a duty load and are very satisfied with the results. I carry Powerball in my compacts because I like the fmj-like profile, but I would use the GD if I couldn't get PB.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Originally posted by safearm:
I carry GD 124 +P in my full-size guns just like you do and feel perfectly comfortable with that round. Both NYPD and Denver PD use it as a duty load and are very satisfied with the results. I carry Powerball in my compacts because I like the fmj-like profile, but I would use the GD if I couldn't get PB.

I'm confident the Gold Dot is a fine choice. What I'm not clear on is whether my father's old 9mm ammo is a fine choice. In other words would you carry Remington hollow point 115 grain R9MM1, Hornady's 115 grain HP Frontier Cartridges, or PMC 115 grain HP for self defense? I suspect the ammo is over 25 years old, but I'm not sure.

 

[WR Moore]

The Remington should be OK for defensive use-IF stored properly. I'd suggest using all of it for practice purposes based largely upon age and uncertainty of storage.

I use the +P version of the Remington as second tier defensive ammo. There may be more modern designs out there, but if you put it in the right place, it'll work just fine. Federal C9BP fits in this category too.

 

[flop-shank]

The one thing 115 gr. 9mm has on it's side is velocity. Velocity can help marginal bullet designs expand.

 

[Seamastersw]

I would take golddot 124+p and that's about it. Other rounds are all trying to achieve what the gold dot has been doing for years.

 

[flop-shank]

IIRC the Illinois State Police had good luck with, I believe, Winchester 115 gr. +P+. I think the only downside of that cartridge is somewhat shallow penetration. I agree Speer 124 gr. is a good one.

 

[safearm]

The 115 grain loads you mention are better than fmj ball ammo, however, if they are over 20 years old, they are older bullet designs; most likely designs from the 70's. There are many more new designs available that are better: Ranger-T, Ranger Bonded, Gold Dot, and HST, to name a few. I prefer the medium weights (124-127 grains) as I believe they are the best combination of weight, expansion, and penetration. Will the 115 grain standard pressure JHPs work? Probably, but why risk your life (if you're using them for self-defense ammo) on a less capable round. IMO, I'd use the old ammo for practice, and FWIW I never liked the PMC except for practice ammo.

 

[940lvr]

The older Remington hollow point ammunition for semi autos, like the R9MM1 mentioned, was designed first and foremost to function reliably. When it was introduced there were a lot of pistols around that were never designed to funtion with hollow points. If you look at the older Remington hollow points you will notice that they look like a full metal jacket with a small hollow point. Reliable functioning, not bullet performance, was Remington's first goal with this design. The design concept was a sound one and I have found that if you have a pistol that does not seem to function with other hollow points, it will usually function with the older Remingtons. They may not expand into pretty shapes but were never designed to. They were designed to provide an expanding (maybe) bullet that would function in almost any pistol. We often take it for granted that a pistol should function with any hollowpoint, but it has not been that way for long. The .40 S&W was the first handgun round that was designed from the beginning with hollow point use in mind.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Originally posted by 940lvr:
The older Remington hollow point ammunition for semi autos, like the R9MM1 mentioned, was designed first and foremost to function reliably. When it was introduced there were a lot of pistols around that were never designed to funtion with hollow points. If you look at the older Remington hollow points you will notice that they look like a full metal jacket with a small hollow point. Reliable functioning, not bullet performance, was Remington's first goal with this design. The design concept was a sound one and I have found that if you have a pistol that does not seem to function with other hollow points, it will usually function with the older Remingtons. They may not expand into pretty shapes but were never designed to. They were designed to provide an expanding (maybe) bullet that would function in almost any pistol. We often take it for granted that a pistol should function with any hollowpoint, but it has not been that way for long. The .40 S&W was the first handgun round that was designed from the beginning with hollow point use in mind.

This is an interesting observation. Will my Dad's Model 59 likely choke on the newer stuff? BTW, he used to load it with some Black Talons (yes, I also have a few boxes of his Black Talons), but I wouldn't be surprised if he never fired a Black Talon from the pistol. In fact, I suspect most people don't really test their pistols using the expensive defense loads. Similarly I'm not sure if my 3913 or 6906 are picky eaters. I've never had issues with Gold Dots, but I haven't expanded into the some of the newer rounds. Is racking the slide through a full mag of ammo a suitable preliminary test for function or is it totally meaningless?

 

[940lvr]

I guess I really dated myself when I said "older". I was thinking more along the lines of military 1911s, older Browning Hi Powers, and such. The third generation Smiths like your 3913 and 6906 were designed with hollow points in mind. That being said, you are correct in your thinking that you should test YOUR gun with the ammo you intend to carry. They are all different. Hand cycling a magazine is not the same as actually putting rounds downrange. There is more to a reliable round than bullet shape. A round with no powder or primer may load, extract, and eject when the gun is cycled by hand, but it certainly would not cycle the action on its own. I have an early Walther PPK that has always had problems loading the first round out of a magazine when it is hand cycled, but is 100% reliable when fired. Go figure. There is a lot going on inside semi autos and there are way too many variables to try to replicate without actually firing the gun. To find out if any firearm is a "picky eater" you have to do the same as you would have to do with a child. You have to feed it and see what it likes. Knowing what functions in your particular gun is far more important than what law enforcement agency carries it of how many tens of a percent more "one shot stops" someone says it has. Granted most modern semis will gobble up most modern hollowpoints. I just like to know for sure.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, considering the advances in hollowpoints in the last 10 years or so, I'd regard 25-year-old HPs as practice fodder.

JMHO, FWIW.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[BreakerDan]

Older ammo is only as good as the way in which is was stored. If the box is very nice then I would have no problem using them. I have fired lots of ammo that approached 70 years old with no trouble.

Hollowpoints may not expand from a handgun anyway, especially the Hornady XTP. Reliability and shot placement are your first priorities.
I personally would have no problem with the 9mm Remington loads you discussed. I have carried them for self defense in a Browning High Power before.

I have a heavy, custom 32-20 pistol that is loaded with 1960s original, long discontinued hi velocity 32-20 ammo and those bullets expand dramatically. These little HPs look like ball ammmo except for a tiny hole in the end. Thats what the gun is loaded with out hunting and I have failed to find a modern design of bullet that is comparable. The ammo was stored well and shoots as good as new. Old hollowpoints are not as bad as people say either.

For a 9mm, all the 115-124 grain HP bullets are decent except XTP. Stay away from 147 grain- even the +P+ dont have the speed to reliably expand.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Originally posted by BreakerDan:
Stay away from 147 grain- even the +P+ dont have the speed to reliably expand.

I've heard this said before, and I've always followed that advice. I have no personal experience as to its validity, but I noticed that the legendary Black Talons are 147 grain.