9mm federal rimmed
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For mine I used 9x19 reloading dies and data and modern 38 S&W brass. One of the reasons for the downfall of the 9x19R was it's physical interchangability with 38 S&W. You can imagine what would happen if someone fired a 9x19 powered ctg in an old IJ Topbreak.
All I ever used was Winchester and Remington so I can't vouch for all makes but both worked fine for me. I suspect that when Star-Line runs the occasional batch of 9 Federal brass it's just 38 S&W with a 9 Fed headstamp. I never bought brass I just fired 38 S&W in the Pit Bull so maybe that was fireforming the brass a little as well. Which brings up another point. At 50' factory 38 S&W shot to same point of impact as factory 9mm Federal. So for plinking loads with cast bullets I used 38 S&W load data. However YMMV as they say.
David Sinko
Member
Frankly I have never seen a Charter Arms revolver that I'd want to own, much less carry for defense.
I have tried loading .38 S&W brass with 9x19 dies for my Model 940 and get nothing but aggravation. I have a very small supply of elderly brass and almost all of it is balloon head. The flashholes are very small and my decapping pins get stuck and pull out of the sizing die. Also, the brass expands far too much on firing, which leads me to believe that proper 9mm Federal is actually quite different dimensionally than .38 S&W. It works in a pinch, but it's definitely not right. In all fairness, I can't speak for modern .38 S&W brass (is there such a thing?) as I have never used it.
Dave Sinko
I have tried loading .38 S&W brass with 9x19 dies for my Model 940 and get nothing but aggravation. I have a very small supply of elderly brass and almost all of it is balloon head. The flashholes are very small and my decapping pins get stuck and pull out of the sizing die. Also, the brass expands far too much on firing, which leads me to believe that proper 9mm Federal is actually quite different dimensionally than .38 S&W. It works in a pinch, but it's definitely not right. In all fairness, I can't speak for modern .38 S&W brass (is there such a thing?) as I have never used it.
Dave Sinko
A obscure cartridge in a Charter Arms. Is it worth it?
JMO but I would put that money towards something else, anything else.
IIRC, Norma sold a similar cartridge in the early 1970's. I've got no clue what the target market was, but the fact that either could be chambered in old breaktops intended for .38 S&W was a deal breaker. (Note: I remembered it as 380 Mk II, but in checking, I found that to apply to something else. Need to find my old Norma catalog.)
A curio, yes. Useable firearm, not really.
And yes, .38 S&W is dimensionally larger than 9mm Federal/380 Mk II. That's why rechambering .38 S&W model 10s to .38 Special isn't really a bright idea, but can be done.
A curio, yes. Useable firearm, not really.
And yes, .38 S&W is dimensionally larger than 9mm Federal/380 Mk II. That's why rechambering .38 S&W model 10s to .38 Special isn't really a bright idea, but can be done.
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Between 9x19 and 38 S&W there is 0.0045" difference in base diameter and 0.021" difference in case length. Do y'all realize how little difference that is in the real world? I'd bet you could find greater base diameter differences between manufactures of 38 S&W Special brass. I KNOW there is greater difference between Remington 38 S&W cases and Winchester 38 S&W cases because I've measured.
metrotps
Member
Gee Why reload? You can buy NOS Federal here: 9mm RIMMED, 9mm revolver ammo, Smith Model 540 Ammunition for sale, gun classifieds or gun auction from Public Pawn. Buy or bid on this 9mm RIMMED, 9mm revolver ammo, Smith Model 540 in the category Ammunition on GunsAmerica.
Seriously from Gunbroker forum:
"When I reloaded for this pistol I used 38 S&W brass and 9x19 +P load data. For plinking I just used 38 S&W ammo. Eventually I got tired of the odd ammo and rechambered the revolver to 38 Super."
"Using 9mm loads from any reloading book. I made up a box using trimmed down .38 spl. cases using 9mm dies and a.38 spl. shell holder. I have only fired about a half of a box with no problems."
Seriously from Gunbroker forum:
"When I reloaded for this pistol I used 38 S&W brass and 9x19 +P load data. For plinking I just used 38 S&W ammo. Eventually I got tired of the odd ammo and rechambered the revolver to 38 Super."
"Using 9mm loads from any reloading book. I made up a box using trimmed down .38 spl. cases using 9mm dies and a.38 spl. shell holder. I have only fired about a half of a box with no problems."
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Metrotps:
Can you tell what type primers you're using? I own two 9 MM Pit Bull revolvers and am currently working with a reloading shop to manufacture ammunition for both. At present, we're using standard 124 grain Luger HP lead in cut down .38 special cases. We are, however, switching to .38 short colt brass because it's cut shorter. We're somewhat concerned about .38 special brass cracking during sizing. So, the less of that we have to do the better we like it.
In terms of performance, the cartridges will fire properly in both revolvers. The only hitch seems to be that about one in 12 currently fails to go off on the first strike. This is not a light strike problem. We believe the problem can be resolved by switching to Federal primers which are about the softest around. However, we're not sure, so any information you can give us about this will be appreciated.
If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post a shooting report after our next batch of ammunition is completed.
Can you tell what type primers you're using? I own two 9 MM Pit Bull revolvers and am currently working with a reloading shop to manufacture ammunition for both. At present, we're using standard 124 grain Luger HP lead in cut down .38 special cases. We are, however, switching to .38 short colt brass because it's cut shorter. We're somewhat concerned about .38 special brass cracking during sizing. So, the less of that we have to do the better we like it.
In terms of performance, the cartridges will fire properly in both revolvers. The only hitch seems to be that about one in 12 currently fails to go off on the first strike. This is not a light strike problem. We believe the problem can be resolved by switching to Federal primers which are about the softest around. However, we're not sure, so any information you can give us about this will be appreciated.
If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post a shooting report after our next batch of ammunition is completed.
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May be the 9mm Browning Long.
I used to buy it for $5/box of 50 (Norma) in a case of 10 boxes from Century Arms. Shipping was free. That was in the early 90's.
They probably bought it as surplus stock from the Norma USA warehouses.
I used it for it's intended purpose in a couple FN'03 pistols.
But it also made a great round for the Enfield No2 Mk I (38S&W cal or .380 as the Brits called it) revolver being a semi-rimmed case.
I shot more of it in the Enfield than the FN's.
No FN'03 nor Enfield anymore,,but I do have a Webley MkIV 38 that could use it. I think I have 1 box & a few loose rounds left over.
I recall an article in Reloader magazine years back on the 9mmBL.
IIRC they were using a 38S&W sizer die for the work as a custom unit from RCBS was a bit spendy.
38 acp/super brass may have been their starting case before Sizing & trimming to length.
Being semi rimmed also,,it might(?) work for the 9mmRimmed revolver round with sizing & trimming.
I think the 38Super brass would be a bit more HD than 38S&W,,but that's just a guess. If so, better for use w/the 'business' loads.
David Sinko
Member
Isn't the rim of 9mm Federal thicker than the rim of either .38 Special or .38 S&W? Are there not some headspace issues involved here? Either you need the proper rim thickness with a case that may or may not be long enough or you need a case that is exactly long enough if the rim is too thin. You should be able to get away with improper rim dimensions as long as the cartridge headspaces properly on the case mouth; the rim is then used only for extraction. If you are trying to headspace on the rim with a slightly short case I can see how you'll get misfires. Does the 9mm Pit Bull headspace and fire loose 9mm cartridges on the case mouth or is the cylinder bored straight through, forcing the use of moonclips?
I haven't played around with .38 S&W brass in my 940 in a while, but I know I have some loaded rounds somewhere. I think the heads are somewhat expanded because there is a bit of the case head sticking out of the cylinder unsupported. I'll see if I can post some pics.
My 940 can handle some very stout loads. I would NOT want to use .38 brass with heavy loads. I would hold out for proper 9mm Federal brass but considering my 940 fires loose rounds of rimless 9x19, that has never been a priority of mine.
Dave Sinko
I haven't played around with .38 S&W brass in my 940 in a while, but I know I have some loaded rounds somewhere. I think the heads are somewhat expanded because there is a bit of the case head sticking out of the cylinder unsupported. I'll see if I can post some pics.
My 940 can handle some very stout loads. I would NOT want to use .38 brass with heavy loads. I would hold out for proper 9mm Federal brass but considering my 940 fires loose rounds of rimless 9x19, that has never been a priority of mine.
Dave Sinko
The rim of 9mm Federal is comparable to the rim of a .38 spl. The cylinders on the Pit Bull headspace on the case mouth, so there's no difficulty in making rimmed 9mm cases from 38 spl.cases. All you need to do is trim the .38 spl. to .76", run it through a 9mm die and trim it to final length.
I don't have any plans to load .38 S&W brass. The case is too thin to load with the proper amount of powder.
I don't have any plans to load .38 S&W brass. The case is too thin to load with the proper amount of powder.
My CA Pit Bull would NOT chamber and fire standard 9x19 ammo, even though they were advertised to do so. I tried most brands both domestic and foreign but they all slipped into the chamber just far enough to not get a good firing pin strike. I suspect that Charter Arms chambering tolerances were a little looser than S&W. I’m not much on theory so all I can tell you is that in practice my particular revolver shot Winchester, Remington and FN very well. In fact, if the OP buys the Pitt Bull and decides he does not like it I have a 1902 1st change in 32 WCF I would trade as I regret selling the one I had.
David Sinko
Member
Well, I looked at some of the loaded rounds I made a while back with .38 S&W brass and 9mm dies. The bulging in the head area seems to vary from case to case but isn't as bad as I thought it was. And there isn't any unsupported case head like I thought. The reach to the primer seems to be about the same as 9mm without the moonclips, and I never get misfires with loose 9mm. I don't recall having any misfires with these .38 cartridges either. I guess the biggest turnoff for me was the balloon head primer pockets constantly yanking the decapping pin out of my sizing die. I presume modern Starline .38 S&W brass would solve that problem.
One in 12 misfires is unacceptable no matter what primer is used. If you have the capability to quickly cut down .38 Special or even .357 Magnum brass, that seems to me the better way. This way you'll have complete control over the length of the finished case, and something a bit longer than .38 S&W might solve your misfire problem. I don't understand why the brass should crack during sizing. If the brass is too thick inside and you need to ream it inside, then I'd say it's a waste of time.
Again, what's the purpose of all this? I fear the OP has already tuned out, concluding the 9mm Federal is far more trouble than it's worth. Loading ammo for shooters who already have the Pit Bull is a noble idea but it sounds like it's gonna be a lot of work.
Dave Sinko
One in 12 misfires is unacceptable no matter what primer is used. If you have the capability to quickly cut down .38 Special or even .357 Magnum brass, that seems to me the better way. This way you'll have complete control over the length of the finished case, and something a bit longer than .38 S&W might solve your misfire problem. I don't understand why the brass should crack during sizing. If the brass is too thick inside and you need to ream it inside, then I'd say it's a waste of time.
Again, what's the purpose of all this? I fear the OP has already tuned out, concluding the 9mm Federal is far more trouble than it's worth. Loading ammo for shooters who already have the Pit Bull is a noble idea but it sounds like it's gonna be a lot of work.
Dave Sinko
Don't think so, but haven't had time to try to find the catalog (1970's). Norma's website doesn't list any pistol ammunition at this time. I had a buddy back in those days with an Astra 400. He shot a lot of the Browning long, 9mm Largo and .38 ACP out of it.
I recall the pictured case as closely resembling the .38 S&W-until I looked at the listed ballistics! I recall wondering at the time just exactly what it was used in.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
It looks like the OP has done just that so I won't even bother adding my voice to this thread.
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