9mm Nato

jinx

jinx

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Posting this here as I can't find a better or correct place.

Last week I was able to get in on the Walmart CCi ammunition sale. Only stood in line for an hour and a half to get my 3 boxes.
While purchasing my allotted 3 boxes, I noticed a sale flyer for ZQ1 or ZQI ammo at 20% off. The clerk said he had 9mm for around 10 dollars a box of 50. I took 3 boxes. When I get home, I noticed that it is labeled 9mm NATO. Did a little digging and came up that this is supposedly a +P round or there about. Designed for military application and is a little hotter that standard specs.
I ask about this as I have a Browning Hi Power that was slicked up by Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide years ago. Since then, I recall reading somewhere that Mr. Laughridge said to never use +P in a BHP. Now, I have never used +P in this gun that I know of. Never purchased 9mm +P before. No reason to.{ I do shoot 38 special +P and know the forum members take on it}
Knowing that BHP's are used all over the world to this day and a lot of them use 9mm NATO ammo, is this going to hurt my BHP? Or is this just more +P hype and misinformation?
Would appreciate your thoughts.
 
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I am a BHP Practical owner and I heard that they will run +P just fine. With that said I would not run them through mine since mine has been worked over by Novak's. If I need more stopping power out of a 9 then I will use my Sig 357 SAS or even yet a 40 caliber. The 9mm browning hi power is one of the best if not the best 9mm ever made. I would just shot standard grain through it and be happy.
 
jinx said:
Posting this here as I can't find a better or correct place.

Last week I was able to get in on the Walmart CCi ammunition sale. Only stood in line for an hour and a half to get my 3 boxes.
While purchasing my allotted 3 boxes, I noticed a sale flyer for ZQ1 or ZQI ammo at 20% off. The clerk said he had 9mm for around 10 dollars a box of 50. I took 3 boxes. When I get home, I noticed that it is labeled 9mm NATO. Did a little digging and came up that this is supposedly a +P round or there about. Designed for military application and is a little hotter that standard specs.
I ask about this as I have a Browning Hi Power that was slicked up by Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide years ago. Since then, I recall reading somewhere that Mr. Laughridge said to never use +P in a BHP. Now, I have never used +P in this gun that I know of. Never purchased 9mm +P before. No reason to.{ I do shoot 38 special +P and know the forum members take on it}
Knowing that BHP's are used all over the world to this day and a lot of them use 9mm NATO ammo, is this going to hurt my BHP? Or is this just more +P hype and misinformation?
Would appreciate your thoughts.
Click to expand...


If memory serves, FN/Browning has endorsed Plus P use. So does Beretta.

That said, I don't think it's a good idea to use it except for familiarization firing to determine that it feeds well and is accurate in your gun, and then to employ it for field and defense use. You probably won't shoot enough coyotes to make a difference in gun life. But why use it for routine range practice? Do you run your car all the time at 90MPH?

Because such ammo is cheap doesn't mean that it's meant for routine casual shooting.

Another point is that all Browning HP's are not created equal. The MK III guns with cast frames and improved heat treatment and reinforced slides at the rear of the chamber opening are more durable than older guns. They were designed to improve durability, because earlier HP's are known to crack slides ,especially if fed high velocity ammo basically meant for use in SMG's.

One of our Swedish members, Q-Ball, has told how their ammo for Carl Gustav M-45 SMG's is heck on the pistol used. The Lahti, especially, breaks. It is pretty well known that the Browning hasn't lasted as well as it should in British use, mainly in police and SAS units that practice a LOT and were firing ammo meant for Sterling SMG's, loaded at Radway Green arsenal. Some Venezuelan 9mm ammo is also quite hot. I understand that Glocks are better if shot a lot with hot ammo, and this is supposedly a primary reason why the UK is transitioning to the Glock 17 to eventually replace their Brownings.

I no longer own any BHP's, but if I did, I'd rely on Federal's basic 9mm JHP load, which is not a Plus P round, but which has a good street rep. It has a 115 grain bullet at some 1160 FPS , and usually expands.

BTW, even 9mm hardball works better than some would have us believe. I have personal feedback from a soldier who used it in Iraq with usually good results. Also, the late David W. Arnold told me that Rhodesian police and army units normally found it effective. David was a senior police official there before emigrating to the USA, where he eventually edited, Petersen's Handguns. He was a firearms enthusiast, author, and historian; not just a cop heavily involved in counterterrorist ops.

Keep in mind that Cylinder & Slide and other custom shops may do accurizing or other work that may make the guns less durable in normal use.

I'd buy std. speed ammo for range use and load Plus P or that Federal 9BP round for field use and defense and not worry. But the HP wasn't especially designed to be a heavy use range gun. It's basically meant for carrying in battle, with just occasional range duty. If you plan to shoot IPSC or other competition, go to a more durable gun. But those who use their pistols for real world needs will probably never have a problem. If you buy the present MK III version, that's even more likely.
 
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Here are numbers I have been able to glean:

Here are the listed figures per SAAMI.
9mm Luger.................35,000 PSI
9mm Luger+P.............38,500 PSI

ZQI NATO list their 9mm 123gr NATO at Max. Pressure 36,995 PSI

So, it would appear it's 1,995 PSI above Standard and 1,505 PSI below +P. So, it's neither, sort of in between, draw your own conclusions.
I have a couple boxes of ZQI I intend to shoot in my Ruger LC9s and am not going to sweat it. YMMV
 
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James&theGiant1911 said:
I am a BHP Practical owner and I heard that they will run +P just fine. With that said I would not run them through mine since mine has been worked over by Novak's. If I need more stopping power out of a 9 then I will use my Sig 357 SAS or even yet a 40 caliber. The 9mm browning hi power is one of the best if not the best 9mm ever made. I would just shot standard grain through it and be happy.
Click to expand...

The "grain" weight of the bullet is not the issue. Use 115 or 124 grain ammo regardless of the pressure. But it is the pressure to which the bullet is loaded that is the issue; not the weight in grains of the projectile.

I suspect that you meant to say that but chose the word poorly ,as you had a tense problem with "shoot" (present and future tense) and "shot", which is past tense. It may confuse readers if you don't proofread.

Bear in mind that some Euro 9mm ammo may be hotter than our Plus P or NATO pressures. They load to different standards.
 
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Thanks to all for your comments and references. Very enlightening.
Before this posting, I did not know what 9mm NATO was. I thought it was all the same ammo. Also, the Federal JHP load is what I have always used and never gave +P any thought.
 
I believe that ZQI ammo only says NATO on the box and does not
have the NATO cross on the headstamp. If anyone has chronographed
it they might find that it really isn't very hot after all.
 
Sorry if this is an ignorant question. I'm not sure what a company has to go through to get 'approved'.

Since ZQI itself is a newer company, is it possible that they were tested and not approved, that they simply haven't been 'tested and approved' yet, or would they simply fall under MKE? MKE has apparently been around since (at least) 2011.

What hoops need to be jumped through and how long does the NATO approval process normally take?
 
RobzGuns said:
Sorry if this is an ignorant question. I'm not sure what a company has to go through to get 'approved'.

Since ZQI itself is a newer company, is it possible that they were tested and not approved, that they simply haven't been 'tested and approved' yet, or would they simply fall under MKE? MKE has apparently been around since (at least) 2011.

What hoops need to be jumped through and how long does the NATO approval process normally take?
Click to expand...

ZQI is just an importer of the Turkish ammo. MKEK is the manufacturer:

MKEK - Mechanical and Chemical Industry Company

The below PDF outlines NATO SG/1 standardization and qualification for NATO small arms ammunition:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011smallarms/WednesdayInter12315Pellegrino.pdf
 
I have shot a couple of boxes of 124 ZQI through 3 different Glocks. Good stuff-a little warmer than domestic brands, accurate and the brass is great for reloading.

While I have not personally clocked this ammo, I did see a guy on you tube chronographing the same ammo in two different pistols. It came in over 1175 and less than 1200 fps.

Hope this helps...At 10.00 a box I would a case and stash it back.
 
alwslate said:
I believe that ZQI ammo only says NATO on the box and does not
have the NATO cross on the headstamp. If anyone has chronographed
it they might find that it really isn't very hot after all.
Click to expand...

The ZQ1 9mm NATO chronographed 1180 to 1205 fps today through a S&W Model 559. Very close to the 1215 fps listed for it. An M9 pistol(Beretta) would undoubtably average 1215 due to its longer barrel length.
I chronographed some recent manufacture Geco 124 gr 9mm Luger in the same gun and it hung around 990 & 1000 fps. Somewhat slower than I expected.
Hope this helps.
Jim
 
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The ZQ1 ammo sounds like pretty good stuff at a very reasonable
price. I have some older Geco 124 gr with the silver colored bullet that
chronographs over 1200 fps out of my Browning HP. I bought a case of
1000 rounds of Geco 124 gr a few years ago that only chronographs
around 1050 fps out of the same gun. I have just a few boxes of
Winchester Nato 124 gr with the Nato Cross and headstamped WCC 88
that also runs a little over 1200 fps out of my BHP.
 
alwslate said:
I believe that ZQI ammo only says NATO on the box and does not
have the NATO cross on the headstamp. If anyone has chronographed
it they might find that it really isn't very hot after all.
Click to expand...

I have a Steyr L9-A1 and it is a little fussy about what to feed it. If I have issues with FTF or FTE my eventual research will show that the ammo is on the cooler side of things. And sometimes the mfr will claim it's hot but actual shooting reveals it's not. Aguila 115 gr brass case FMJ being one example.

I bought one box of that ZQ from Wally World and had a single failure to feed with it. I don't have feed or ejection problems with Winchester White Box or Federal Champion burgundy box.

So my personal take of the ZQ is it ain't whats being claimed.
 
+1 on post 5 for psi figures..........

out of a 4" barrel the 115gr FMJ @ 1236fps
and the 124gr FMJ @ 1185fps are todays standards.

NATO is between a standard load and a +P loading but should
NOT be used in the old Luger type guns unless checked by a gunsmith on the weapon's condition and makeup.
 
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