what is to much variation in the oal in 9mm reloads? i am trying to maintain an oal of 1.125. it runs from 1.120 to 1.130. is this normal for 9mm.? inhave not not loaded a lot of 9mm. i have been loading for 25 years. i only have been loading 9mm. for a short time. i am loading a 115gr. plated xtreme rn bullet. i am loading 5.3 grs. of unique. i am loading on a lee classic cast turrent press. i use lee 4 die set. i have not tried the 550 yet. i do not know if it would make a difference or not. any help would be appreciated.
9mm oal?
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jepp2
Member
That variation in itself will not be a problem. However, are you using the same bullet seating depth as the load in the book? The only way to know is to determine the bullet seating depth (distance the bullet extends INTO the case) and compare that with your loads. Unless you are using the exact same bullet (manufacturer, type, profile, etc.) as the book load, the chances are your bullet length is different. OAL doesn't determine peak pressure, bullet seating depth does.
SAAMI sez
The sporting arms standard is 1.000 to 1.169 inches so you are in the ballpark but the spread of 1/100th of an inch seems excessive. Are you dies tightened down good, turret steady and all that? I'd expect a variation of a few 1/1000ths rather than 1/100ths.
The sporting arms standard is 1.000 to 1.169 inches so you are in the ballpark but the spread of 1/100th of an inch seems excessive. Are you dies tightened down good, turret steady and all that? I'd expect a variation of a few 1/1000ths rather than 1/100ths.
Since you have the Lee turret and Lee die set, perhaps you have the Lee 2nd edition of the "Modern Reloading" manual. You might want to look at page 96 #2 regarding the XTP loads. The shorter the OAL (in your case 1.125 vs 1.120) makes more of a dramatic increase in pressure than on a non-extreme round since the XTP requires the deeper seating. I have no idea how your difference will play out since you are loading w/ 5.3gr vs 5.5 gr. The starting grains for Unique stated in the Lee manual (p508) is 5.5gr for 115 gr XTP and states the min OAL is 1.125. Also check out p157 on min oal. You may want to compare that to Lymans 49th edition or some other known good manual as I don't know where you arrived at 5.3gr. There are the other variable as temperature (p85) can come into play if the load was developed in a cold garage and then later taken out on a hot day in the sun to shoot. Those temp change pressures could make you round much hotter, especially on a shorter oal. Not trying to nit-pick, but a shorter oal makes me think of other variables. (ie a harsh taper crimp that drives up pressure, are all rounds at 5.3gr or is there some variances, etc). This probably didn't help, but trust your inner voice that had you ask the question.
i used the lyman book for 115gr. it is for hollow points. oal is1.090. i do know hollow points are shorter than rn bullets. i do not know how much shorter.just figured it bwould be best to be a bit longer than to short,and not get compression to much.5.8 gr. of unique is max load in the lyman book for this bullet .so 5.4 is not to low.4.4 is min load so i am in the upper range. this is a plated bullet. i checked a box of factory loaded 9mm rounds and found a variation of as much as 15 thousandths in oal. my loads are below that. they all pass the plunk test . so i should be ok.i have loaded 115 grjrn bullets with the same charge. i do not remember the oal i used. i did not load very many. they all shot ok. any other comments welcome, i need all the help this 72 year old can get.
Each weight bullet has its own OAL and usually the heavier the bullet, the deeper it will enter the case in order to fit properly in the 9mm.
Most OAL measurements come by the shape and style of the bullet and the main factor is the Ogive , or taper of the tip.
You can see this if you have a 115gr. JHP and compare it to a 115gr. "Ball" or round nose shaped bullet. This is one reason there has to be a fit for the magazine oal and a barrel oal for a certain bullet to feed ........and chamber correctly.
In the past I found that my 9mm had feeding problems if the 115gr JHP was a little too long , even though it feed well in my magazines. A little shorter and it zipped up the feed ramp and into the barrel.
(I try not to bad mouth bullets but you might check out post #9)
Yes there is a "Standard" OAL set with each bullet but you may have to adjust it a little if it does not work out in your pistol.
Good luck.
Most OAL measurements come by the shape and style of the bullet and the main factor is the Ogive , or taper of the tip.
You can see this if you have a 115gr. JHP and compare it to a 115gr. "Ball" or round nose shaped bullet. This is one reason there has to be a fit for the magazine oal and a barrel oal for a certain bullet to feed ........and chamber correctly.
In the past I found that my 9mm had feeding problems if the 115gr JHP was a little too long , even though it feed well in my magazines. A little shorter and it zipped up the feed ramp and into the barrel.
(I try not to bad mouth bullets but you might check out post #9)
Yes there is a "Standard" OAL set with each bullet but you may have to adjust it a little if it does not work out in your pistol.
Good luck.
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scooter123
Member
Another Scooter here.
First, I just don't trust the Lyman manual. IMO there are too many "flyers" in the data published and it's rare if the Lyman manual jibes with other sources. For example their 45ACP data is BELOW the starting loads for for either the Lee or Speer manual and in some cases Lymans max loads are below Speer's starting load. Look at 308 Rifle and the loads are well over other sources maximums.
Speer lists a 1.135 minimum length for their 115 grain TMJ Round Nose. BTW, they list 1.125 as the length for the Gold Dot and in comparing 45 caliber 185 gn. XTP's and Gold Dots I've found both bullets are exactly the same length. It's very possible that the 9mm XTP's and Gold Dots would share the same length so IMO you should treat Speer's suggestion of a 1.135 length for a Round Nose profile as valid.
Note, I really do wish the bullet manufacturers would publish the length of their bullets because it is so critical in establishing the correct seating depth. Perhaps we all should ask for a Sticky at the head of the Reloading area where we can post bullet lengths for all to refer to.
Good news is that according to Speer your 5.5 grain load is light, in fact it's below Speer's suggestion of a Starting load for a 115 gn RN with Unique. BTW, the maximum Speer lists is 6.3 grains. So, your current loads are safe to use because your light enough on the charge that you shouldn't have any pressure spikes due to a restricted case volume. However, if you decide to increase your powder charge it would be a very good idea to increase the overall length of your load to at least 1.135 inch.
As for your length variation, that is more variation than I've seen using either Lee or RCBS dies. I would suggest that you snug your seating dies down a bit tighter and see if that reduced the variation.
First, I just don't trust the Lyman manual. IMO there are too many "flyers" in the data published and it's rare if the Lyman manual jibes with other sources. For example their 45ACP data is BELOW the starting loads for for either the Lee or Speer manual and in some cases Lymans max loads are below Speer's starting load. Look at 308 Rifle and the loads are well over other sources maximums.
Speer lists a 1.135 minimum length for their 115 grain TMJ Round Nose. BTW, they list 1.125 as the length for the Gold Dot and in comparing 45 caliber 185 gn. XTP's and Gold Dots I've found both bullets are exactly the same length. It's very possible that the 9mm XTP's and Gold Dots would share the same length so IMO you should treat Speer's suggestion of a 1.135 length for a Round Nose profile as valid.
Note, I really do wish the bullet manufacturers would publish the length of their bullets because it is so critical in establishing the correct seating depth. Perhaps we all should ask for a Sticky at the head of the Reloading area where we can post bullet lengths for all to refer to.
Good news is that according to Speer your 5.5 grain load is light, in fact it's below Speer's suggestion of a Starting load for a 115 gn RN with Unique. BTW, the maximum Speer lists is 6.3 grains. So, your current loads are safe to use because your light enough on the charge that you shouldn't have any pressure spikes due to a restricted case volume. However, if you decide to increase your powder charge it would be a very good idea to increase the overall length of your load to at least 1.135 inch.
As for your length variation, that is more variation than I've seen using either Lee or RCBS dies. I would suggest that you snug your seating dies down a bit tighter and see if that reduced the variation.
Clovishound
Member
I have the same setup as you. A Lee classic turret, Lee 4 die set, and 9mm rn bullets. I normally get oals that vary by one or two thousandths at most.
Are you measuring after seating, or after crimping? When setting up, I normally measure after seating. After I get things at target, I measure several crimped rounds, and then measure a sample for QC every so many rounds.
Are you measuring after seating, or after crimping? When setting up, I normally measure after seating. After I get things at target, I measure several crimped rounds, and then measure a sample for QC every so many rounds.
Bullets can vary in shape. I have noticed that with Sierra 115 gr FMJ. You can see it with the naked eye. If your seating die seats on the ogive, not the nose, this will cause variations in the OAL. I called Sierra and of course they didn't know of any issues. BS. I don't know what the answer is. I'm using Lee dies, which do seat on the ogive.
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edslow
US Veteran
Most important don't be to short. For putting holes in paper I don't worry about the small difference. Stay between the min. an max. If you are using all different brass casing you will have that.
Engieman
Member
As the folks above have pointed out, there are many, many variables at play. Bullet shape, weight, design, hardness, variability in loading manuals - especially older verses newer, pistol chamber tolerance, feeding, fast verse medium verse slow powders, etc. etc. I have loaded 9mm for many years looking for that 'holy grail' combination of bullet, powder velocity. The short answer is it seems for accuracy and function, each gun has it's own personality and preferences. In establishing a load, I check new and old published data, call the manufacturer (both powder and bullet producer) for recommendations/ranges/OAL, and read the firearm blogs (carefully) and make an informed decision with as many data points as possible...then start 'experimenting' within those perimeters. OAL are all over the place depending on bullet shape, weight and size - based on tested, published data by the companies. I used to worry excessively if I was getting under 1.130 for example. The reality is the seating depth is determined by design and charge and gun tolerances. My loads range from 1.050 to 1.115, all safely based on published data. I shoot four 9mms, primarily have settled on two powders, titegroup and WSF; and 3 bullet types - two 122gr and one 124 - all lead. All my loads are target variety aimed at accuracy, not maximums and power....and seem to get my best accuracy around 1000FPS.
Small changes make a big difference. Despite the commentary's, the 9 is not hard to load for. However the 'window' is smaller than say the .38 Special, .45ACP...and there is a larger than normal variation in barrel diameter than a lot of other gun designs/manufacturers. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that the 9mm is a military, service load, and the makers allowed for larger tolerances based on an adverse environment
For one load, based on data, I was loading in 3.5, 3.6 range. Dropped it down to 3.4 and all the stars aligned. It can be exasperating, and I have numerous 1 pound bottles bought for experimenting that have been overshadowed by my pet loads - although I'm quite sure I'll be able to sell 'em if I choose to do so in this environment
, but that's the fun and satisfaction that comes with reloading. It's not just a job, it's an adventure! Have fun
Small changes make a big difference. Despite the commentary's, the 9 is not hard to load for. However the 'window' is smaller than say the .38 Special, .45ACP...and there is a larger than normal variation in barrel diameter than a lot of other gun designs/manufacturers. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that the 9mm is a military, service load, and the makers allowed for larger tolerances based on an adverse environment
For one load, based on data, I was loading in 3.5, 3.6 range. Dropped it down to 3.4 and all the stars aligned. It can be exasperating, and I have numerous 1 pound bottles bought for experimenting that have been overshadowed by my pet loads - although I'm quite sure I'll be able to sell 'em if I choose to do so in this environment
, but that's the fun and satisfaction that comes with reloading. It's not just a job, it's an adventure! Have fun
If it fits the magazine, feeds through the gun, and fits the chamber, don't worry about it. I make my COLs, no matter what bullet weight or shape, the longest that will do the above and never have a problem. As for consistent (or inconsistent) COLs, I wouldn't be too concerned unless trying for "match-grade" accuracy.
edslow
US Veteran
As the folks above have pointed out, there are many, many variables at play. Bullet shape, weight, design, hardness, variability in loading manuals - especially older verses newer, pistol chamber tolerance, feeding, fast verse medium verse slow powders, etc. etc. I have loaded 9mm for many years looking for that 'holy grail' combination of bullet, powder velocity. The short answer is it seems for accuracy and function, each gun has it's own personality and preferences. In establishing a load, I check new and old published data, call the manufacturer (both powder and bullet producer) for recommendations/ranges/OAL, and read the firearm blogs (carefully) and make an informed decision with as many data points as possible...then start 'experimenting' within those perimeters. OAL are all over the place depending on bullet shape, weight and size - based on tested, published data by the companies. I used to worry excessively if I was getting under 1.130 for example. The reality is the seating depth is determined by design and charge and gun tolerances. My loads range from 1.050 to 1.115, all safely based on published data. I shoot four 9mms, primarily have settled on two powders, titegroup and WSF; and 3 bullet types - two 122gr and one 124 - all lead. All my loads are target variety aimed at accuracy, not maximums and power....and seem to get my best accuracy around 1000FPS.
Small changes make a big difference. Despite the commentary's, the 9 is not hard to load for. However the 'window' is smaller than say the .38 Special, .45ACP...and there is a larger than normal variation in barrel diameter than a lot of other gun designs/manufacturers. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that the 9mm is a military, service load, and the makers allowed for larger tolerances based on an adverse environment
For one load, based on data, I was loading in 3.5, 3.6 range. Dropped it down to 3.4 and all the stars aligned. It can be exasperating, and I have numerous 1 pound bottles bought for experimenting that have been overshadowed by my pet loads - although I'm quite sure I'll be able to sell 'em if I choose to do so in this environment
Very good advice +1
Forgot to mention
The wide variation in OAL for a certain batch of reloads will cause noticeable velocity differences due to the varying pressures of different seating depths. You will be happier with the reloads if they are consistent with each other.
An early batch I made I was having trouble getting the depth set and ended up taking apart a few cartridges and reseating the bullets. (I'm a little heavy-handed when it comes to adjusting dies) I must have missed one because in that batch was a distinctive HOT one that may have been due to deeper seating.
The wide variation in OAL for a certain batch of reloads will cause noticeable velocity differences due to the varying pressures of different seating depths. You will be happier with the reloads if they are consistent with each other.
An early batch I made I was having trouble getting the depth set and ended up taking apart a few cartridges and reseating the bullets. (I'm a little heavy-handed when it comes to adjusting dies) I must have missed one because in that batch was a distinctive HOT one that may have been due to deeper seating.
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I was having the same seating depth problems with my 9mm and Rainier plated bullets. The problem is the seater plug and bullet shape are causing the inconsistencies in seating depth. My Hornady seater dies come with two seater plugs, one that is cup shaped for round nose shapes and the other for flat nose bullets.
I put the Hornady seater plug for flat tip bullets in the Lee seater die and the problem went away. The problem is still there but you are no longer measuring variations in the shape of the round nose. The cup shaped seater plug "IS" seating the bullets at a constant ogive depth but the OAL varies. The flat tip seater plug is seating the bullets to a constant OAL but the specific ogive point will vary.
You can run into a similar problem with plastic tip rifle bullets if the plastic tip contacts the seater plug first and compresses while seating.
There is a simple solution in the dies instructions, if you are having seating depth/length problems you are to send three bullets and your seater plug back to Lee. They will then make the cup shape in the end of the seater plug the same shape as your bullet and fix the problem.
The same problem can exist with jacketed bullets but their jacket is harder and shape more contestant than plated bullets. Bottom line the plated bullets are softer and have more "give" when seating pressure is being applied.
I put the Hornady seater plug for flat tip bullets in the Lee seater die and the problem went away. The problem is still there but you are no longer measuring variations in the shape of the round nose. The cup shaped seater plug "IS" seating the bullets at a constant ogive depth but the OAL varies. The flat tip seater plug is seating the bullets to a constant OAL but the specific ogive point will vary.
You can run into a similar problem with plastic tip rifle bullets if the plastic tip contacts the seater plug first and compresses while seating.
There is a simple solution in the dies instructions, if you are having seating depth/length problems you are to send three bullets and your seater plug back to Lee. They will then make the cup shape in the end of the seater plug the same shape as your bullet and fix the problem.
The same problem can exist with jacketed bullets but their jacket is harder and shape more contestant than plated bullets. Bottom line the plated bullets are softer and have more "give" when seating pressure is being applied.
Curious if your dies are the newer carbide or the older generation?
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I went out an bought a Lyman 49th today. They are in plastic wrappers so I couldn't just peak. But another loading manual is ok. Always something good in each book. The use of the jacketed HP (Lyman page 341) for the XTP is ok using XTP # 35540 per page 340. Hornady web site http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-115-gr-HP-XTP or you can just enter the 35540 in search Hornady bar. Your round must be the 35540. I am enjoying the question you launched and researching it as well and hearing/learning from others. Thanks bigedp51 for the heads up on seater plug.
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I went out an bought a Lyman 49th today. They are in plastic wrappers so I couldn't just peak. But another loading manual is ok. Always something good in each book. The use of the jacketed HP (Lyman page 341) for the XTP is ok using XTP # 35540 per page 340. Hornady web site http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-.355-115-gr-HP-XTP or you can just enter the 35540 in search Hornady bar. Your round must be the 35540. I am enjoying the question you launched and researching it as well and hearing/learning from others. Thanks bigedp51 for the heads up on seater plug.
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p341:
Lyman 49th OAL 1.090"
Unique start gr 4.4 max gr 5.8
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p508
Lee 2nd Edition Min OAL 1.125"
Unique start gr 5.5 max gr 6.3
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P771
Hornady 9th Edition COL 1.075
Didn't list Unique powder for this round
Universal start gr 4.0 max gr 4.5
Win 231 start gr 4.1 max gr 4.4
Power Pistol start gr 4.8 max gr 6.7
Hornady p61 states max col are provided on their data pages
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Lyman 49th OAL 1.090"
Unique start gr 4.4 max gr 5.8
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p508
Lee 2nd Edition Min OAL 1.125"
Unique start gr 5.5 max gr 6.3
-
P771
Hornady 9th Edition COL 1.075
Didn't list Unique powder for this round
Universal start gr 4.0 max gr 4.5
Win 231 start gr 4.1 max gr 4.4
Power Pistol start gr 4.8 max gr 6.7
Hornady p61 states max col are provided on their data pages
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Remember this, the Lyman reloading manual will list a universal receiver and pressure test barrel. The test barrel will have a minimum size chamber and bore, meaning it will generate the highest possible pressures you could encounter.
Where a specific firearm is listed the pressures were taken with a strain gauge glued to the barrel. A calibration cartridge is fired of a known pressure to calibrate the strain gauge readings.
The universal receiver and test barrel have a direct reading pressure transducer screwed into the barrel. And the strain gauge readings are a computer guesstimate of the actual pressures.
Bottom line, the universal receiver test barrel setup gives the most accurate and direct pressure readings. And because strain gauges are used in many manuals is why the loading data varies so much between manuals.
Where a specific firearm is listed the pressures were taken with a strain gauge glued to the barrel. A calibration cartridge is fired of a known pressure to calibrate the strain gauge readings.
The universal receiver and test barrel have a direct reading pressure transducer screwed into the barrel. And the strain gauge readings are a computer guesstimate of the actual pressures.
Bottom line, the universal receiver test barrel setup gives the most accurate and direct pressure readings. And because strain gauges are used in many manuals is why the loading data varies so much between manuals.
Per post #17
with the Sierra 115gr FMJ oal 1.125" in my old Radom
I had data that showed 6.3grs of Unique as a maximum
but I was lucky and with only 5.8grs of powder, I got seven
to group at 2 7/8 inches.
Made a great Jack rabbit load, if you have a desert to walk around in.
with the Sierra 115gr FMJ oal 1.125" in my old Radom
I had data that showed 6.3grs of Unique as a maximum
but I was lucky and with only 5.8grs of powder, I got seven
to group at 2 7/8 inches.
Made a great Jack rabbit load, if you have a desert to walk around in.
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Ok, the OP doesn't mention if his bullets are lead, plated or jacketed. Lead bullets will generally deposit lead fragments in the seating die. This will cause the bullets to seat deeper and deeper. If loading lead, you need to periodically scrape the lead out of the seating die.
Second, the gent who comments about the dies getting loose in the press has a point. The dies (especially belling and seating) should be checked to make sure they're still tight. A very slight snugging of the die with a wrench or channel-lock on the nut when installing will work wonders.
Finally, a 0.010 (one ten thousandth of an inch) variation in overall length really isn't that bad and can be caused by slack or out of round parts in the press linkage. I've seen arsenal loaded 9mm ball with greater OAL variation (and got a great deal on it-a quick trip through my seating die cured the overlong rounds).
If, after making sure your dies are clean and properly seated, 0.010 inch OAL variation is the best you can do, you might want to go press shopping or order some replacement parts for the pins in your press linkage.
Second, the gent who comments about the dies getting loose in the press has a point. The dies (especially belling and seating) should be checked to make sure they're still tight. A very slight snugging of the die with a wrench or channel-lock on the nut when installing will work wonders.
Finally, a 0.010 (one ten thousandth of an inch) variation in overall length really isn't that bad and can be caused by slack or out of round parts in the press linkage. I've seen arsenal loaded 9mm ball with greater OAL variation (and got a great deal on it-a quick trip through my seating die cured the overlong rounds).
If, after making sure your dies are clean and properly seated, 0.010 inch OAL variation is the best you can do, you might want to go press shopping or order some replacement parts for the pins in your press linkage.
