9mm; soot on one side of brass

[air8]

Hi everyone. I hope this is a simple one to answer.
Our reloads are getting soot on one side of the brass cases. The factory loads have significantly less soot. Also that minimal soot from factory loads stays around the top of the case....not along one side.

I waited till we had a second powder to test before posting this. So two different powders were used. I'd say 95% of our reloads come out like this picture.

Load data:
CCI & Winchester Primers
115 gr. FMJ & Plated bullets
Hogdon CFE pistol powder, 5.2 grains, 1.160" OAL
--OR--
Hogdon Clays powder, 3.2 then up to 4.0, 1.160" worked down to 1.100" OAL.
.2 then up to 4.0, 1.160" worked down to 1.100" OAL. I'm not having luck with the Clays regarding cycling the slide. Did some research and it seems this isn't right powder for our plinking uses.

Any experience reloaders who can suggest what I am seeing with this soot along the cases?

 

[ralph7]

I don't know anything about the powder you are using, but soot on cases usually only meant I had to increase the charge weight a bit and it would go away.
Never bothered me if the gun functioned and the load was accurate.

 

[Rule3]

This is copied from a reply on another forum from a very knowledgeable guy. Certain powders and light loads will also contribute to the situation. Not a big deal though.

"Because the case is smaller then the chamber before it expands on firing.

So, it is laying on the bottom of the chamber before firing, leaving a slight 'gap' at the top of the chamber.

So the gas gets in the crack there first before the case expands fully.

It may also be due to a difference in case wall thickness.
The thinner side expands easier / faster then the thicker side.

You could mark a few on the side that is up in the chamber with a marker pen and fire them.
Then see if the burn is on top or not?

If it is, it's gravity acting on the smaller case in the larger chamber.
If it isn't, it's case wall thickness variation."

 

[505Gibbs]

I don't know anything about the powder you are using, but soot on cases usually only meant I had to increase the charge weight a bit and it would go away.
Never bothered me if the gun functioned and the load was accurate.

I agree - the load is on the light side. Initiator states the factory loads have less carbon - more pressure.
If loads are accurate - ignore the carbon - thats what tumblers or ultrasonics are for!

 

[AlHunt]

I don't know what max loads for those powders are, but I'm thinking you're on the light side. I'm thinking the primers aren't terribly flat either.

ETA: The primer on the right can be seen a little in your pic. It doesn't look very flat. I'd bet there's room to amp up the powder charge. Check your reloading manual.

 

[rwsmith]

Also type of powder....

The formula in some powder creates more ash and soot. So besides your scorched case problem it may help to use a cleaner burning power. Those look pretty cruddy.

Also, consumers don't have access to the same powders that manufacturers do.

 

[air8]

Hmmmm. Ok. Thanx for the replies. That does make sense regarding light loads.

Accuracy is spot on out to 50 yards so I won't mess with the formula. That is plenty accurate for me with a pistol.

LoL. @ 505Gibbs. We built a tumbler a few weeks ago and it works great.

 

[air8]

Well good deal. Went and did some adjusting. The Hogdon Clays Universal powder bottle had max load suggestion of 5.0 grains. And a disclaimer printed saying to reduce loads by 10%. So at 4.5 grains and OAL of 1.160 I got great results. The cases had no soot along the sides, but wasn't worried about that after earlier replies. The shot groups were more consistent, and the pistols felt pretty good.

The first few thousand rounds I loaded were light apparently. I was using the Hogdon CFE pistol powder and their website suggested 5.2 to 5.9 grains for my setup. So I tested 5.5 and everything seemed great so I stuck with that.

Now after the adjustments today it's easy to see and feel the difference.

 

[Inusuit]

Yup. No obduration.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have not used Clays but have used w231, CFE, Red, Green and Unique with a plated 115gr 9mm.
1.16" was way too long for my pistol and fps were very low and the ES had a wide spread.

This "Ball" type bullet did its best at 1.14" for me and I did squeeze it down to just 1.10" where the case was still on the bullets cylinder but the accuracy was really bad in four out of five powders that I tested max or 100% volume.

1.10" went from 997 to 1216 fps with the best group at 1.20".
While the 1.14" loads went from 905 to 1263 fps and the best six groups were around .99 to .53" for a 5 shot group.

I seldom had dirty cases with the very fast powders but when I got in the Green Dot and CFE speed powders there were a lot of dirty cases in the low end of the data manual listings.

The 115gr plated seemed best past 1,000 fps for clean cases, good ejection and groups that I could live with for killing paper.

Good luck.

 

[air8]

I have not used Clays but have used w231, CFE, Red, Green and Unique with a plated 115gr 9mm.
1.16" was way too long for my pistol and fps were very low and the ES had a wide spread.

This "Ball" type bullet did its best at 1.14" for me and I did squeeze it down to just 1.10" where the case was still on the bullets cylinder but the accuracy was really bad in four out of five powders that I tested max or 100% volume.

1.10" went from 997 to 1216 fps with the best group at 1.20".
While the 1.14" loads went from 905 to 1263 fps and the best six groups were around .99 to .53" for a 5 shot group.

I seldom had dirty cases with the very fast powders but when I got in the Green Dot and CFE speed powders there were a lot of dirty cases in the low end of the data manual listings.

The 115gr plated seemed best past 1,000 fps for clean cases, good ejection and groups that I could live with for killing paper.

Good luck.

I read about those types of powders all over the place. I really want to try them out cause there is only good reports about them. The gun shops in my area never have them though. Maybe they sell out as quick as the shipment comes in. I don't know. There are three local shops and I've never had luck finding these popular powders.

I can't justify paying the hazard fees which are the same or close to the cost of the powders. LOL. So that's I guess is part of my problem with using weird type of powders.

 

[Nevada Ed]

"Weird powders" will work, it is a powder after all........some just need to be tried to find a sweet spot, if any.

I use both ball and flake powders in my tests and both will get good accuracy and either low or high fps in my pistols. My new C9 has had 88 test loads through it so far from 115 to 147gr plated bullets.

Keep on pulling the trigger..
something will finally make you happy.

 

[Moe Mentum]

That's the fun of reloading, making adjustments as you go along. Eventually you will get to that sweet spot.

 

[rsrocket1]

Just a minute,
Your original post says Clays and the link in your post shows Clays, but later, your post says Universal Clays. Unfortunately, Hodgdon makes a confusing point with their "Clays" line of powders. Clays is a super fast powder, "International Clays" is a little slower and "Universal Clays" is a medium speed powder like Unique.

The Hodgdon site says 115g bullets should use a MAX load of 3.9g Clays with a 1.125" COL. You said you worked up to 4g with a 1.10" COL which would put you way over max if you used "Clays", but considerably under loaded if it were "Universal Clays" for reliable cycling and clean burns. I assume you meant "Universal Clays" with your powder on hand.

Universal is an ideal powder for 9mm in that it generates good velocity to cycle the slide, high volume so you can easily see a double charge and fairly reasonable pressures so you aren't dancing on the ragged edge just to get enough speed to cycle the action.

 

[air8]

Yes you are correct. When I made the original post I was sitting waiting to pick up the kids from school. The later post was when I was sitting at the workbench with the powder in front of me.
The powder I have is the Universal Clays. And yes, the loads were low enough to not cycle the slide. I had used Hogdon's website info with our first powder, the Hogdon CFE pistol.Those rounds seemed fine, just a lot of soot. So when the LGS's didn't have CFE or any powder that suggested 9mm, I settled on the Universal Clays from Hogdon. Checked the website and started testing. And since they weren't cycling but still had the sooting like with the CFE powder, I decided to ask questions. LoL.

Earlier today I read how much difference there is between the two when people described how they reacted.

 

[palmetto99]

Huh. I've never loaded my 9mm "hot" and have almost always had the "soot". Never thought much about it. Rounds always shot well. Learned something today.

 

[bluetopper]

In 9mm, all I care about is if the last shot will consistently lock the slide back. If it will it's powerful enough for me and usually very accurate.

 

[air8]

Huh. I've never loaded my 9mm "hot" and have almost always had the "soot". Never thought much about it. Rounds always shot well. Learned something today.

LOL. I learned a lot from the responses on this post as well. And had me reading, re-reading, and online searching lots more info.

This afternoon I will test some more. I have several loads of different grains with Clays Universal. OAL of 1.160" for all rounds.
Since I know 3.2g is way low, I have 20 rounds with 3.9g, 20 rounds with 4.1g, 20 rounds with 4.3g, and 20 rounds with 4.5g. I will be using 5 of each load in each of the three pistols I have, and a pistol a friend has. M&P 9 fullsize 4", XDM 5.25, Kahr CW9, and my friends STI GP6C (which is amazingly accurate.)
Two days ago I tested the 4.5g of clays universal in the XDM and everything felt and looked the same as factory ammo. I believe I will end up there, at 4.5g, but I will see after some testing this evening.

 

[air8]

@ Moe Mentum....I agree very much. Big smiles for me.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Please note that on the Hodgdon data there are numbers that make me scratch my head.

The 124gr "Ball" target bullet at a oal of 1.15" has a max of 4.4grs of Universal clays powder.

The 125gr Sierra JHP at only 1.09" oal can swallow up to 4.9grs of Universal, and stay within 9mm standard pressures.

I would think these numbers would be reversed........c/o the oal ??
I saw where a 22-250 load data for a 55gr load should have been reversed, also.............with two of the slowest powders.

Take it slow and work up those loads..........!!