A Close Call.

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walkin jack

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After reading other thread on this topic I decided that rather than hijack another thread I'd put this up on it's own.

I wrote this up on another site after it happened and it went south over racial issues. I have been reluctant to post up anything further about it but I've been around this place now for just a little while and it seems that everyone in here is mature enough and has enough respect for the rules that there wouldn't be any problems.

Just let me stress that even though the other guy in this event was a black man that the events that unfolded and the actions we both took were not motivated by racial issues. I can guarantee y'all that I certainly had none and I didn't see even the slightest sign that the other guy did either. Both of us assessed the situation and made rational decisions using good judgement. Catastrophe was there by averted.

I ask that y'all keep your responses away from racial issues and comments and I request that if it does happen that the mods pull this entire thread. I only post it because I feel that it is interesting and that it demonstrates that the term "cool heads prevail" has some merit.

It was in the spring about 3 years ago when I was 65 years old. I was pretty involved in photography during that time and had decided to do a "survey" of some of the old abandoned houses along some of the rural roads in Texas. My title for this project was "This Old House" and was to include old abandoned houses, out-houses, churches and barns.

Although Hwy 6 between Houston and Waco has been very recently upgraded and widened it is still rife with many abandoned old structures like I was interested in. I set out that morning with fresh batteries and a new memory card in my digital camera and was making my way north stopping at every opportunity to capture another example of my subject.

I was on a stretch of the highway where the road bed was elevated about 7 or 8 feet above the land in that area. Off to my right I saw an old house that was long abandoned and leaning drastically to one side, looking like it was ready to blow away with the next good wind. I pulled over and got my camera ready and got out of my truck.

I was wearing my Glock 36, a compact .45auto and two spare mags OWB with a loose shirt not tucked in. I'm always very discreet when I carry and I've never been "made" in over 10 years of carrying every day. Sometimes I carry other calibers or other kinds of guns but when I'm on the road I always carry a .45.

I walked around the back of the truck and down the embankment and stopped at the 5 strand barbed wire fence and began taking pictures of the very interesting old house. When I had what I wanted I went back up to the truck and I was sitting on the tail gate reviewing the pictures I'd just taken when I see this guy come scrambling up the embankment. He appeared to be is a great hurry.

I jumped down off the tail gate and moved to the side of my truck. When he got to the top of the embankment he asked me in a somewhat heated voice what I was doing. He continued to approach me and I asked him in as calm a voice as I cold manage, not to come any closer. He stopped and wanted to know what I was doing on his property. I was very nervous and more than a little afraid. I am 5'5" tall and weigh 150 pounds. At the time I was 65 years old. I estimated him to be 6'2" to 6'3" and 220 to 230 pound. 30 to 35 years old. Not that it was a factor he was a black man.

It wasn't a factor for me but I wasn't immediately sure if it was for him or not. As we talked I determined that it was not. When I asked him not to come any closer I reflexively moved my right hand into position to draw if it became necessary. His eyes immediately dropped to my right hip. I was not printing but he may have been able to tell now that he was thinking about it that I was armed. He stopped.

I explained what I was doing and that I never went inside the fence. I never went on his property. He seemed to be thinking that over. He was clean shaven with a neat haircut and dressed in work clothes. He was dirty but explained that he was working on a tractor. He had on a blue T-shirt with a white police badge decal over the right breast.

I nodded my head in acknowledgement but I told him that that was not proper ID. He nodded but did not offer to show me anything further. If I had to guess I'd guess that he actually was an off duty police officer. His appearance, calm professional kind of behavior seemed to indicate to me that he was.

I held my camera out and set it down on the tail gate and took a few steps backward. I invited him to examine my camera and told him how to toggle through all the pics that I'd been taking. He stood there for what seemed at the time like a very long moment. I could see the decision making process going on in his eyes. I guess he decided to accept my story and with out another word he turned around and went back down the way he'd come up and disappeared.

I sat in my truck for 15 minutes trying to calm down and reassessing the events that had just happened. If either one of us had lost our cool it would have been awful. But we gave each other a chance and it worked out.

In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.

Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. The law makes provision for disparity in size and physical condition. Given the facts that he was twice my size and half my age, and the fact that my hands are so effected by arthritis as to render me unable to fight I would have been justified to pull and fire even if he had no weapon. I could not afford to let a guy that big and strong hit me in the head. It could easily be fatal or at least leave me permanently impaired. I had made the decision and the commitment to pull and fire if he hadn't stopped when and where he did. I was totally focused.

As a Vietnam vet I know what it's like to exchange gunfire with another human being. I've never been shot but I have seen the results up close and personal of the after effects of a fire fight. The instructors in CHL classes are not telling Noah about the flood in my case when they tell you how you will feel later if you have to shoot. Believe me....There are no mysteries for me in this. I have no desire to shoot ANYone for ANY reason. I don't think it'd be cool or make me tough or any of the movie guff that is so prevalent. I'd never shoot someone over a tv or a vehicle, that's what insurance of for. Only to save my life of the life of another.

Every time I think about this situation I am thankful that everyone involved kept their cool. I hope that this story will impress at least one person and help them to remain calm and focused in a potentially bad situation. When it happens to you it will be too late to have to figure out what to do.
 
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Thanks for sharing a pratical story that we can all apply to our own everyday life. Im glad it all worked out for you.
 
In Detroit, that's pretty much the way it usually goes too. It can get dicey at times.
I don't know the Texas area your referring to but Detroit Michigan has it's own culture to it. Not a good one either.
I personally think he was a bit on the aggressive side too, there's better ways to ask what someone is doing. I'm glad it worked out for the best.
 
in large part, private property rights are greatly respected in the west, including Texas.

his reaction to your 'invasion' or 'trespassing' is understandable. folks don't like strangers (including govt officials) stopping by unannounced taking pictures of their stuff.

may want to rethink this whole idea of taking pictures of other's places without permission.
 
This is a most excellent point. It would certainly have saved me some tense moments. Now I can see the wisdom of this but at the time I really didn't see anything wrong with shooting from the side of the road.

Live and learn, eh? :rolleyes:

in large part, private property rights are greatly respected in the west, including Texas.

his reaction to your 'invasion' or 'trespassing' is understandable. folks don't like strangers (including govt officials) stopping by unannounced taking pictures of their stuff.

may want to rethink this whole idea of taking pictures of other's places without permission.
 
This is a most excellent point. It would certainly have saved me some tense moments. Now I can see the wisdom of this but at the time I really didn't see anything wrong with shooting from the side of the road.

Live and learn, eh? :rolleyes:

perhaps others reading this will learn something.

overall, i'd say you are lucky he didn't put a hole in your tires and leave you to fend for yourself. most trucks only carry one spare.
 
perhaps others reading this will learn something.

overall, i'd say you are lucky he didn't put a hole in your tires and leave you to fend for yourself. most trucks only carry one spare.

That's the hope. And yes I felt quite lucky to get out of that situation none the worse for wear. I can see where I brought it all on by my careless actions.

I've heard it said that we mustn't judge a man harshly for the mistakes he makes.....just for the ones he REPEATS. :o :D
 
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I'm going to go against the grain here, but if I can see it from the road, I can take a picture of it. As long as you don't commit trespass, you haven't done anything wrong. I would, however, be a lot more conservative in my opinion if the dwelling was occupied. I would introduce myself and get permission.

I also think the gentleman was too aggressive. I'm glad it worked out.
 
The guy may have been tired of people ripping off his property and have been willing to stop an theft before it started. Glad it worked out for both of you with no need for lead flying.
 
The structure I was photographing was uninhabited and abandoned. Windows all broken out an years gone. Roof gone in places. About ready to collapse. What I couldn't see from my vantage point was the NEW HOUSE that the residents of the old one had built and moved into. It was a nice house with a new barn and everything, and it was on the same property but I was unable to see it because it was hidden by a stand of trees.

The property owner saw me and I had no idea there was anyone or any other structure on the property or in the area. He 'splained it to me though. :rolleyes: My mistake may have been innocent but it WAS my mistake and I won't be making it again any time soon I don't reckon.

I'm going to go against the grain here, but if I can see it from the road, I can take a picture of it. As long as you don't commit trespass, you haven't done anything wrong. I would, however, be a lot more conservative in my opinion if the dwelling was occupied. I would introduce myself and get permission.

I also think the gentleman was too aggressive. I'm glad it worked out.
 
Interesting story. I'm glad it turned out well and that cool heads prevailed.

I don't live close enough to any roads for me to be able to relate 100%. If someone were in a position to be taking pictures of my home, they'd be trespassing and I'd be ticked.

If I lived next to a road and someone was standing at my fence taking pictures of my house, I'd be one unhappy camper.

Now, I HAVE done something similar. A few years back I was real big into photography. Once while on leave I drove around taking pictures of the area. Mostly farms. I wanted some pictures of home to take with me over to the sandbox.

Whenever possible / applicable I'd knock on the door, introduce myself, and explain what I was doing. Every single person gave me permission to take pictures. Most of them were flattered that someone was interested enough in their home / barn / farm etc.

A few of them had one request: that I send them copies of the shots I took of their place.
 
The thread you mentioned might have been mine from a couple of days ago, "Glad I Was Packing My 442." You were wise to use your age and experience to settle this peacefully and you are to be congratulated on your calm under the circumstances. Using deadly force is always to be an absolute last resort, I had to use it during my LEO career and cannot recommend the exprience to anyone.

Thank you for taking the time to share this, my hope is others will learn from it.
 
Since the guy never really identified himself you dont really know who he was or if what he said was true. Maybe he was up to something and thought you caught it on camera. His actions lean more that way. I take pictures of houses all the time as a part of my business and there is no law against taking pictures from the road. Many people dont know that though and a "heads up" is not a bad idea.
 
Since the guy never really identified himself you dont really know who he was or if what he said was true. Maybe he was up to something and thought you caught it on camera. His actions lean more that way. I take pictures of houses all the time as a part of my business and there is no law against taking pictures from the road. Many people dont know that though and a "heads up" is not a bad idea.

This is a very interesting take on the situation. I never thought of it this way. I guess we'll never know....
 
The other side of the story?

If you was carrying a metal detector you would have got an earful. A claw hammer might be worse?

Lots of rural people get real tired of people going through their old buildings to collect antique bottles or whatever. Some people even take the old wood to refinish into some old looking bookshelf or whatever, or to sell at flea markets.

This guy checked you out, expecting an argument no doubt. He probably wanted to get close enough to get your vehicles license number and see if anything of his, or his neighbors, was in the back of your truck. And you scared him with the 20 foot thing and hand motion. Next time he tries to get a license number for himself and his neighbors he might be packing a pistol and maybe both will do the hand motion at the same time? That is when your jaws get tight and you hear your teeth squeaking. Think how bad you would feel if he drew and you shot him - and found out he had been burglarized numerous times.

Hopefully you were not accidentally standing in front of your license plate they way teenagers do when caught vandalizing. Okay, I read is again any you stepped to one side of truck with tailgate down - good he could see that the truck was empty.

Quite a few years ago a farmer in Iowa got so tired of trespassers he rigged a shotgun inside aimed at the doorway. His wife made him lower the barrel to leg level. It was quite a lawsuit that cost him his farm.

All I am trying to say is that you do not know what has been going on in that area, and how cranked up people can get when someone stops by their old building that has been repeatedly burglarized. First he rings his neighbors phone to say another guy in a pickup has stopped by his old house.

(For the sake of discussion I am taking the other side - have a good day my friend - backing up a few steps first, sounds better in court - stay safe - stay on pavement. As my father would say, "there is such a thing as being dead right". An old policeman once said "there are worse things than getting shot").
 
So you govern your life with whether you come in contact with someone who might take offense to your doing something perfectly legal and non-threatening? (Remember, this is just for fun :))

Confronting someone in an aggressive manner is a bad idea no matter how bad a day your having. I under stand the frustration, I'm a landowner and a photographer. I have dealt with trespassers, and I've been questioned as to what I'm doing with a camera. ( I love rock houses)

I'm my opinion, the op did absolutely nothing wrong.
 
So you govern your life with whether you come in contact with someone who might take offense to your doing something perfectly legal and non-threatening? (Remember, this is just for fun :))

Confronting someone in an aggressive manner is a bad idea no matter how bad a day your having. I under stand the frustration, I'm a landowner and a photographer. I have dealt with trespassers, and I've been questioned as to what I'm doing with a camera. ( I love rock houses)

I'm my opinion, the op did absolutely nothing wrong.

Go back and read it again. He is carrying extra magazines in broad daylight drive in the country. In 4 and 5 paragraphs from the end he says:
Quote -
In CHL classes we are told that 21' is as close as you should let a potential attacker get. Inside that, they say, you can not pull and fire before your attacker can reach you and cut/stab/assault you. This guy stopped at what I figured was not quite 20'.

Thinking about the way it might have gone if he'd rushed me and I'd shot him, I'd have been covered even if he'd actually been a LEO. (let me say un-quote here)

Sounds to me he thinks he can get away with shooting a policeman in front of the policeman's property. Our court and jury system is not geared for this logic.
If he goes up that road again - and stops in front of old houses again - after his hand motion to belt - he will likely run into the farmers version of neighborhood watch. The person confronting him next time will be friedly, will not be alone and his backup will be carrying a rifle, not pointed at him. And they will legaly look inside his truck through windows without entering it. Everyone is free to walk on the road, it works both ways.

All he needs to do is get a longer lens on his camera and ask people first when possible. They will tell him how others feel.

He should not expect the farmer to have seen him leave his truck. Assume the farmer saw him after he was stopped and after he had gone down by the fence. In which case the farmer did not know if he had been past the fence. The farmer did everything right and he did everything wrong.

And if race was not an issue why bring it up?

(Lets do a gentle debate - the information seems needed)
 
In the last 30 years, I have been threatened by a kid who said he had a knife, a guy whom I think wanted to carjack me, and two guys who wanted to mug me for my money. All three times I was carrying a pistol or revolver. Two out of three times (Kid with knife and carjacker) were resolved without violence. The two guys who wanted to mug me got beat up. To their credit - one did get a punch in on me - and to prove what an idiot I was, it was in a city which does NOT allow folks to carry handguns.

All three times I had been surprised because my situational awareness was not where it ought to be, and I looked like a "mark". All three times could have been avoided if I had simply been paying attention.

My point is that never did I feel the need to go for my gun, because I immediately felt that I was at least partially culpable for getting myself into this situation. Most would-be altercations in life can be resolved with talking in a cool-headed manner. If that fails, I have my karate training. The gun is last on my list of tools.

That's my story and I want to make it clear to the OP that I am not making any judgments as to how he reacted. I'm glad it turned out that neither one of you got hurt, and I'm glad that you learned something from it. The day you stop learning, you're no good to anyone.

What I do want is more civility in our society. I talk to strangers. I like talking to people. Every time I do, they smile. I'm not talking trading recipes or political dogma, I'm referring to just saying "Hi" to folks and maybe treating them like fellow brothers and sisters, rather than people who are in your way, getting your saturated fat-laden belly bomber or pricey over-roasted yuppie coffee in the morning.

Do you remember after September 11th that strangers would talk to you at the gas pump? It's because we all banded together as Americans. We had a black eye, and they realized that we were in this together.

Now it's back to people flipping you off, or talking on their cell phones in the checkout line and not even acknowledging that the cashier is another human being.

Are you kidding me? Do we have to suffer another terrorist attack to start acting civilly, again?
 
Hello request

Hello Walkin' Jack
You sound like an honest man and a fellow handgun person. I really want to support you but you really need to write this again with no mention of race.
Then I will explain that barb wire fences are put where it is easy to drive the truck full of fence posts and wire, or where you want to contain the cows.
A real legal person wanting to extend boundaries checks at city hall for the road easement width. From center line of road it is half that. (yes I have had loud debates with apartment dwellers that want their dog to relieve their bowels in my yard).

(Second paragraph)
"it went south over racial issues"

(Third Paragraph)
"other guy in this event was a black man"
"not motivated by racial issues"

(4 th paragraph)
"from racial issues"

(tenth paragraph)
"Not that it was a factor he was a black man".

(Something about this Paragraph)
It wasn't a factor for me but I wasn't immediately sure if it was for him or not. As we talked I determined that it was not. When I asked him not to come any closer I reflexively moved my right hand into position to draw if it became necessary. His eyes immediately dropped to my right hip. I was not printing but he may have been able to tell now that he was thinking about it that I was armed. He stopped.
 
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