A New type of target (at least to me)
- Thread starter Protected One
- Start date
In a perfect world, we'd be judged by 12 reasonable individuals, maybe even one or two gun owners among them. Our defense would be competent and articulate, and the prosecution would be solely interested in seeking the truth.
In the world we actually live in, we are going to be judged by 12 members of the public. Gun owners are likely to be specifically excluded from the pool. Your defense, if you choose poorly, may not know the first thing about guns. The prosecutor will be concerned primarily with his re-election prospects. The "victim" you shot will be presumed perfectly innocent, regardless of his criminal history. Every aspect of your character, though, will be on trial. Every skeleton will be dragged out of the closet. If you, God help you, got professional training, it will be argued that you did so because you're a wanna-be cop/soldier. If you used hollowpoints, it's because you wanted to kill and maim. The name of your gun will be bandied about if you were silly enough to carry something called the NightPro Custom Killer chambered in .42 Magnum Deathdealer.
Me, if I'm gonna go on trial, I want every single person to talk about what a calm, friendly sort I am. A pillar of my community, a paragon of responsible gun ownership, an avid shooter and the definition of a sportsmanlike competitor. I wanna carry some nameless gun, and I wanna load it with Hornady Critical Defense, the most smartly-branded product in the history of trade (every time somebody refers to your ammo, they have to repeat two key words in your hopeful exoneration: "critical" and "defense").
I do not want them to talk about how I practiced shooting at pictures of people.
For more on why I think the things I think, check out Mas Ayoob's On Deadly Force. Good book full of case studies where people got railroaded into jail, and sometimes talked themselves there.
Last edited:
Mainsail
Member
Does it chuckle when you shoot it with a .380 or 9mm?
<ducks>
<ducks>
Arik
Member
I do the same. My gun doesn't even have an name. Just one letter and 2 numbers. And the numbers don't even indicate caliber, just the patent number! My ammo is gold dot. Doesn't even have the word "critical" in it. However, you are still shooting at a picture of a human being. Oh so you're shooting center mass....you obviously want to train to kill! See how even that can work against you.
Also, I'm going to say this as it relates to the actual target being talked about and not in a political way. The target is black....it's all black but black none the less. Aaaannd....on top of that, that looks like a hoody being worn.
Just about any of that can work against you. The only thing I can think of that doesn't have some sort of stigma attached to it is a plain white paper plate with your shoots either being all over the place or somewhere in the corner more or less together
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Last edited:
armallard
Member
If you don't carry your own what are some of your going rate's per target? Where I go it's a flat $1 for any target I've only been going for 2 weeks 3-4 days a week sometimes less.
"Critical" is a good word. It implies the situation was dire and your actions were necessary.
On the dark-colored target, that's not even a joke. A politically-motivated police sergeant in the city I used to live in raised a big ol' fuss on the community meeting circuit because the department used black silhouette targets on a white background to qualify and train. It worked, too, she got elected to city council and proceeded to help run the place into the ground.
I wish I was making that up.
Pay for targets? What's this?
Guys complain about the club I belong to, but they don't know how good they have it. They get to bring their own targets, pick up their own brass, and we don't even make them buy ammo here!
By the way, if you want a passel of targets cheap, head over to your local print shop. If you can buddy up with some guys, you can get a few thousand targets printed up for under 10 cents each (goes as low as a nickel), all on nice heavy card stock.
OP
Protected One
Member
Targets are .75 cent/ at any of the ranges I shoot at.
If You want cheap, just save Your old t shirts and staple one over a b 5 or a USPSA target. Teaches center of mass effectively.
OP
Protected One
Member
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2013
- Messages
- 2
- Reaction score
- 0
YEA... But paint is really expensive!!! LOL I have to admit I like the reactive targets, ("Dirty Bird" is my favorite.. and cheapest), makes it easier for my old eyes to see what the trigger finger has been up to... and I'm ALL ABOUT the instant gratification.
John F.
Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2009
- Messages
- 240
- Reaction score
- 249
A word of caution...
FWIW, I've learned the hard way, many times, that some folks present themselves as something they aren't, and claim experiences they haven't had, to boost their perceived prestige. This gentleman may well be everything that is claimed and more, but then again, it's wise to assess the validity of people's claims before accepting them at face value.
No offense to anyone intended, have just dealt with countless proven posers claiming to have been snipers, Special Forces, SEALS, Prisoners of War, Combat veterans, Combat Wounded, Huey Door Gunners, fake veterans, etc. ad nauseum. Stolen Valor cases are surprisingly common, and not limited to just the military.
I don't think Jim Cirillo, Jelly Bryce, etc. carried guns stashed all over their bodies despite having won MANY gunfights. Extreme behavior or highly-unusual claims are often reasons to raise your BS-detector to High Alert, until claims can be verified. Of course, individual differences DO exist, just don't automatically believe everything you hear!
John
FWIW, I've learned the hard way, many times, that some folks present themselves as something they aren't, and claim experiences they haven't had, to boost their perceived prestige. This gentleman may well be everything that is claimed and more, but then again, it's wise to assess the validity of people's claims before accepting them at face value.
No offense to anyone intended, have just dealt with countless proven posers claiming to have been snipers, Special Forces, SEALS, Prisoners of War, Combat veterans, Combat Wounded, Huey Door Gunners, fake veterans, etc. ad nauseum. Stolen Valor cases are surprisingly common, and not limited to just the military.
I don't think Jim Cirillo, Jelly Bryce, etc. carried guns stashed all over their bodies despite having won MANY gunfights. Extreme behavior or highly-unusual claims are often reasons to raise your BS-detector to High Alert, until claims can be verified. Of course, individual differences DO exist, just don't automatically believe everything you hear!
John
Biggfoot44
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 2,060
- Reaction score
- 1,596
Well, Cirillo did commonly carry three.
texmex
Member
I agree that the the target could be more anatomcally correct. As a law enforcement firearms instructor, I am always looking for something different to keep the training interesting. This is certainly different.
i agree wit the poster above what are you going to do shoot a paper plate your whole life. i like mixing it up and having alittle fun at the same time thats what life is all about
Rastoff
US Veteran
Nobody is going to prison because they shot at a paper target with a picture of a person on it. It never has happened and never will happen.
OP
Protected One
Member
Glad somebody finally said it!
scat530
Member
I shoot bullseye targets because 20 years ago a friend of mine had access to an old National Guard range shack that was going to be made into a runway, I had a Toyota corolla station wagon that I filled up with old water soaked targets. We shared but I've still got a bushel box full. And that's after giving away bunches to friends. That all being said If you didn't have a good enough Defense Lawyer that would mention that you practiced so that you could a. defend yourself, and b. so that you could stop the attacker (never mentioning that you planned on "KILLING" anyone, because you don't plan on that ever) oh and c. that you could make sure that you hit what you were aiming at,( the bad guy not some innocent bystander) unlike some police officers in large cities.
Knowing where the vital organs are is important to stop an attacker. Shooting the gun out of an attackers hand happens in the movies not in real life. Hitting someone in the heart isn't a sure thing that you will stop the attack, knowing where to shoot after that plan hasn't worked involves knowing anatomy and this target is a great way to learn that.
Oh prior to my haul of targets I used to shoot paper plates and water bottles (picking up my trash) while both are great to see that you hit what you were aiming at, having a target that shows "some" anatomy puts your shooting in perspective. YMMV
Knowing where the vital organs are is important to stop an attacker. Shooting the gun out of an attackers hand happens in the movies not in real life. Hitting someone in the heart isn't a sure thing that you will stop the attack, knowing where to shoot after that plan hasn't worked involves knowing anatomy and this target is a great way to learn that.
Oh prior to my haul of targets I used to shoot paper plates and water bottles (picking up my trash) while both are great to see that you hit what you were aiming at, having a target that shows "some" anatomy puts your shooting in perspective. YMMV
Last edited:
scat530
Member
I noticed that the gun on the bench was a Browning Hi Power Great shooting gun.
Like I said, check out On Deadly Force. People have hired perfectly competent attorneys, who sought out expert testimony and consulting, and then, for whatever reason, threw it completely out the window. Not because they were stupid or just bad at being attorneys, but because they're not gun people.
Shooting them in the head isn't a guarantee, either. Bullets happily skip off of skulls all the time.
In fact, the only guarantee I've ever read came from Bill Jordan. He guaranteed that if you get into a gunfight, you're not going to be expecting it. But I digress, somewhat.
Anyways, shooting for particulars of anatomy sounds awful optimistic to me.
Rastoff said:
Care to be a test case?
Do you remember what happened to George Zimmerman?
How about Larry Hickey? He shot two of three attackers in self-defense, and wound up spending 71 days in jail while his family, friends, and fellow firearms instructors worked to raise his $200,000 bail. Trial #1 wound up with a hung jury. Trial #2 went favorably because the attackers had to change their stories to sue Hickey for his home insurance money--but it was still a hung jury, but this time only two voted to convict. Here's some fun bits:
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hickey_Booklet.pdf
Remember, self-defense is an affirmative defense. That is, you are not contesting the fact that you shot the injured/deceased, but you are arguing that your actions were necessary. This means that you have to prove you were justified, to the standard that your state requires.
Make no mistake, your state of mind and character are central to making your case. And, being the accused, you're already starting at a disadvantage. These days, you're at real risk of being put under a national microscope in a self-defense incident. Everything can come out, and there are people who will happily ruin your life just to score a point against those pesky gun owners.
Why give them any ammunition?
Similar threads
