A Nice New Model Number Three

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Last weekend I came across this New Model Number Three at a local gun show. The caliber is 44 Russian. The Serial Number is 310XX and Roy said it shipped in October of 1896. All the SNs match, and the SN is scratched on the underside of one of the grips. It is lacking some blue on the barrel and some other spots, but the lockup at the latch is perfect, not a hint of play, and the cylinder locks up with just a tiny hint of rotational play. Certainly good enough to shoot. In fact the dealer was surprised when I told him I intended to shoot it. In addition, the bore and chambers are spotless. There is only the tiniest bit of pitting near the muzzle, otherwise the chambers and bore look like they just left the factory.

I was thinking of you Don Mundell, while I took the gun apart.

I only shoot my antique revolvers with Black Powder. No disrespect to those who think it is OK to shoot them with Smokeless, I just won't do it. When I intend to shoot an old revolver with Black Powder, the first task is to remove all the old oil inside, and replace it with a Black Powder compatible oil. The main spring was a bit difficult to remove, but with the help of my reverse pliers I was able to get it out. I also removed the hammer. That is as far as I go, I don't drive out the pins that hold the trigger or trigger spring in place and I don't remove the barrel.

A word here about Black Powder and water. I noticed a recent post where the Original Poster said he would not use water on his gun, and therefor would not shoot it with Black Powder. What most folks do not realize is that because we no longer use corrosive primers, Black Powder fouling is not as corrosive as it used to be. The other thing that most folks don't realize is that if you coat Black Powder residue with oil, it will not cause any corrosion. Normally, BP fouling is extremely dry, and it will wick moisture out of the atmosphere. When the water combines with the fouling, it causes corrosion because it is held in close proximity to the metal. But if you infuse the fouling with oil, it cannot absorb any moisture out of the air. It is similar to a sponge that has already been saturated with water, you can't get it to absorb any more water. Similarly, BP fouling that is infused with oil cannot absorb any moisture from the air, and will not cause rust.

I will dismantle a firearm to this extent. Then I will completely remove all the old oil with a solvent. I used to use lacquer thinner, but more recently I use regular rubbing alcohol. And lots and lots of Q-Tips. Once I have everything down to bare metal, I give everything a light coating of Ballistol, an oil that is compatible with Black Powder.

Here is a photo of the revolver stripped down and all the old oil has been removed. There was very little gunk inside. Although the blue shows plenty of wear, I can tell this revolver has not been shot very much over the years. After this step, I lightly oiled everything with Ballistol, and then put it back together again.


I'll discuss cleaning without water in a minute.

I had a box and a half of my Black Powder 44 Russian loads on hand and took the revolver to the range the next day. I put about 40 rounds through it. I was not surprised that there was no binding, these guns were designed for Black Powder, and with bullets with plenty of BP compatible lube on them it performed like a champ.

A nice group other than the one flier. The trigger is quite stiff, that may be why I had the flier. Or perhaps it was just poor technique on my part.

So, about water. Everybody knows water is the best solvent for Black Powder. The problem is getting the water out again. If you leave any water behind, it is sure to cause rust. I used to mess with Cap & Ball revolvers when I was a kid, and I used to take the entire gun completely apart and clean everything with hot water. What a pain. Not to mention the wear and tear you put on the screws and screw slots taking it apart so much, and perhaps cross threading a hole, or even loosing something.

When I started shooting Black Powder in CAS I discovered a terrific alternative to water for cleaning Black Powder. Equal parts Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and drugstore Hydrogen Per Oxide. I call it Murphy's Mix. Mixed together in equal parts it is my standard solvent for cleaning Black Powder. I know what you are going to say, water has worked fine for hundreds of years, why come up with some fancy new gimmick? Because you don't have to get it out again. You just leave it inside. No hot water necessary, no throwing the gun parts in the oven to dry out, nothing.

That's why I got rid of all the old oil inside the gun and coated everything with Ballistol. I will not open that gun up again probably for a few years. When I do, any BP fouling that worked its way down inside will have been rendered harmless because it will have soaked up some oil. There will be no rust inside. Of course if the ghost of your grandad or your old drill sergeant is whispering in your ear about never putting a gun away dirty, this might not appeal to you. But I have been doing it for years, and it works.

But I digress. When I get home, I clean the gun thoroughly with Murphy's Mix. About 50% of Murphy's Mix is actually water. The alcohol is about 20% water, and the H2O2 is about 97% water. It is the water that does the actual dissolving of the fouling. The alcohol helps the mixture dry more quickly, and the H2O2 adds a little bit of fizzing action to help lift the fouling. Then when it dries, the oil in the oil soap will be left behind, leaving a nice coating of oil. I clean the gun with Murphy's Mix and conventional patches, then I dry the chambers and bore. Then I run a patch soaked with Ballistol through the chambers and bore, followed by a dry patch to mop up the excess. Then I squirt a little bit of Murphy's Mix into the lockwork under the hammer, followed by a couple of squirts of Ballistol.

Total cleaning time about 15 minutes, and no disassembly and no water left inside.




My new New Model Number Three is going to be a nice companion to my other one. This one left the factory in 1882 and was refinished at the factory in 1965. I will be shooting them occasionally in CAS.

 

[lebomm]

What is your handload recipe? Do you use a 240/246/250 gr. bullet or a "cowboy" style 200 gr? Lightly compressed charge ? Graphite wad ? I've been having an affair with an Uberti 3rd Russian, mostly smokeless, but would like to assemble some with the Holy Black. BTW, your pistols really make me drool !

Larry

 

[Masterpiece]

The Serial Number is 310XX and Roy said it shipped in October of 1896.

Driftwood,

Thought this may be of interest...There's a "Very" high probability your newly acquired NM#3 will letter as being shipped to Takata & Co. Yokohama, Japan on Oct.28th,1896...This was a very large shipment containing 1955 of these Revolvers!!

By the way...Congrats on your New Acquisition...Very Nice Looking NM#3...Don't see many having a Blued Finish in that high of condition!!

 

[rct269]

IT'S A SMALL WORLD!!

Driftwood,

Thought this may be of interest...There's a "Very" high probability your newly acquired NM#3 will letter as being shipped to Takata & Co. Yokohama, Japan on Oct.28th,1896...This was a very large shipment containing 1955 of these Revolvers!!

By the way...Congrats on your New Acquisition...Very Nice Looking NM#3...Don't see many having a Blued Finish in that high of condition!!

To be exact (or almost exact)---which I don't often get a chance to do (especially about what happened in 1896), "Smith & Wesson only produced 3,463 units of this model in 1896 of which just over 3,000 units were supplied to the Japanese Government." So----if yours didn't go to Japan (likely didn't), you have one of less than 463 of these "units" sold/delivered in America----or somewhere other than Japan--and so do I.

Mine is #30261. It's pictured in N&J (Revised) on page 190. (It's a lousy picture, but a neat gun.)

Ralph Tremaine

And it too shipped in October---the 18th.

 

[Masterpiece]

If yours didn't go to Japan (likely didn't), you have one of less than 463 of these "units" sold/delivered in America----or somewhere other than Japan--and so do I.

Mine is #30261. It's pictured in N&J (Revised) on page 190. (It's a lousy picture, but a neat gun.) And it too shipped in October---the 18th.

Ralph,

While I don't often disagree...In this particular instance lets say I agree to disagree!!

Meaning I agree Your Revolver having Serial No. 30261 (Did Not) ship to Japan...Where I disagree is I'm sticking to my guns to the fact...Based on My Data..I'm pretty well-assured Driftwood's will letter as I stated above!!

Guess we'll see which one of us is correct if Driftwood decides to "Letter" his newly acquired Revolver...Ha!!-Ha!!

 

[rct269]

Well, in view of the fact you have data---and I have a not so scientific WAG------no bet!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Masterpiece]

Well, in view of the fact you have data---and I have a not so scientific WAG------no bet!!

Ralph,

Actually I didn't realize we were betting on the outcome...Ha!!-Ha!!

And as an aside...So you're aware...What I referred to as "My Data"...Mainly comes from data Roy compiled years ago taken from the Factory Records of quite a few "All Inclusive" Serial No. Ranges of NM#3 Revolvers shipped in Japanese Shipments...Especially the Later Shipments!!

I'd also like to add...Based on NM#3 Revolvers that have surfaced in those "All Inclusive" Serial No. Ranges...Not even once (When Lettered) Has the Info he provided been incorrect!!

 

[JSR III]

DJ, hello from Massachusetts. Was that the Marlboro show that you attended? I was there but only found a model 1, third issue. Just for educational purposes, what did the model 3 cost you? I don't typically see many reasonably priced antiques, if any, at all at the MA shows so am curious.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

Nice looking set of revolvers I bet they get a lot of envious looks at CAS events ,do they give extra points for useing period guns rather than replicas ( just wondering) .Some shooting on that target ! I know lots of guys who would be bragging on that ( myself included) with a moder smokeless revolver much less with yours loaded with BP.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

DJ, hello from Massachusetts. Was that the Marlboro show that you attended? I was there but only found a model 1, third issue. Just for educational purposes, what did the model 3 cost you? I don't typically see many reasonably priced antiques, if any, at all at the MA shows so am curious.

James
It was Marlboro. It was right in the front as you walk in. The guy usually has only C---s on his tables. He did have a nice Model 15 in nickel. He came over to my table and showed it to me Saturday morning. I thought it was a very clean example.

 

[glowe]

Great guns!! I have to comment on your cleaning mixture though. I see no difference between your formulation and simply adding soap to water. You have half water in your solution, which evaporates the at the same rate, independent of how fast alcohol evaporates. If it gets into the threads of screws, it will stay there until the water can evaporate. The oil, which is potassium vegetable oil is biodegradable and will offer no protection to metal surfaces over time. I truly believe that your mix has the same level of potential rusting to metal as soap and water. Don't be fooled by the oily shine, alcohol evaporation rate, and any claims that water will not enter your firearm and make sure to use the same drying technique as if you were just using standard BP cleaning techniques. After all, we want to see those great revolvers lasting forever in the condition we see in the pictures.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Why not go completely away from water and use Strike Hold. It is hydrophobic and carbon does not stick to it.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Gary:

I can only say that the empirical evidence tells me my technique works. I shoot nothing but Black Powder in CAS, and have been doing so for over ten years. Although I did not invent Murphy's Mix, I have been using it and Ballistol as described for a long time now in all the firearms that I shoot with Black Powder. As do several other shooters I know. My main match guns are a pair of 2nd Gen Colts, chambered for 45 Colt. My main match rifle is a 44-40 Uberti replica of the 1860 Henry. My main match shotgun is an old Stevens side lock hammer double from about 1906. In addition to these, I occasionally shoot my nickel plated New Model #3, a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army chambered for 44-40, a pair of replica 1858 Remingtons equipped with 45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinders, an antique 44-40 1894 Marlin, a 44-40 Uberti replica 1873 rifle, two antique 38-40 Winchesters Model 1873 and one antique 44-40 Winchester Model 1894. Maybe a few more, that's all I can think of right now. Oh yeah, add a Second Model Russian, a first Model Schofield, and two 44 Double Actions to that list.

Before I tried this technique with any guns I took a piece of low carbon steel and coated it with Murphy's Mix and set it aside to dry. Several days later the Mix had dried, leaving behind an oily smear on the steel. There was no rust.

As I believe I stated, this technique is not for everyone. If one has a problem putting a gun away knowing there is powder residue inside, one will not be happy with this technique. I have been doing this for over ten years now, and whenever I take one of my guns completely apart for a thorough cleaning, there is always plenty of black, oily guck inside. There is never any rust. Just a few weeks ago I took apart one of my Colts that had gone several years without being cleaned out. As I expected there was plenty of black, oily guck inside. There was no rust.

Seems to me I must be doing something right, and I don't have the hassle of completely disassembling everything and heating the parts to dry them. Been there, done that, and I got tired of the flash rust that usually happened.





Wiregrassguy: never heard of Strike Hold. Looked it up and it does not say anything about being Black Powder compatible. I suspect the amount of fouling generated by Black Powder might be a bit daunting for it. I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing because it ain't broke and don't need fixing.



S&WsRsweet: We have something called Style Points. Not official, just bragging rights. I have probably accumulated a few over the years. There are so many guys shooting Black Powder now that I don't get much special notice unless somebody takes a close look at my guns.



JSR III. Yes, it was at the Marlboro show. I saw it Saturday morning, but like a dope I had forgotten my checkbook. I drove home to get my checkbook and returned, hoping it would still be there. It was, and I bought it. It was the absolute best thing I saw at the show, there were a couple of other items that interested me, but nothing like this NM#3. Sorry, I won't discuss the price on the forum, I will send you a PM regarding what I paid.



lebomm:

My 44 Russian load is Starline brass, any large pistol primer although I usually use Federals, the Mav-Dutchman Big Lube 200 grain bullet sized to .428 and lubed with SPG, and 1.3CC of FFg. I usually use Schuetzen. 1.3CC of Schuetzen is about 19.5 grains when I weigh it out, the actual weight will vary by brand because not all Black Powder weighs the same. This amount of powder will be compressed about 1/16" when the bullet is seated on it. I do not use any wads, there is no need. The Mav-Dutchman bullet, along with all the Big Lube designs have been specifically designed for Black Powder. As you can see in this photo, they have a huge lube groove which carries enough lube to keep the bore of a rifle coated with soft lube for its entire length. This is the secret to keeping a Black Powder cartridge rifle shooting all day long without loosing accuracy do to a build up of hard fouling in the bore. This load has a mild recoil in a large pistol such as the NM#3, but I certainly would not want to stand in front of one.

Regarding the Uberti replica Top Breaks, they are somewhat problematic for shooting with Black Powder. This is because when Uberti lengthened the cylinders enough to accept long cartridges such as 45 Colt and 44-40, they did not stretch the frame an equal amount. Instead, they shortened the gas collar at the front of the cylinder. The gas collar is what shields the cylinder arbor from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. The shortened gas collar is not able to deflect fouling blasted out of the b/c gap as well as the original design, and they tend to bind up quickly when fired with Black Powder. If I was you, I would use a bullet such as the Mav-Dutchman lubed with a good BP compatible bullet lube such as SPG, to keep your Russian rolling as long as possible without binding. If it starts to bind, you can pull the cylinder, wipe the arbor and front of the cylinder of as much fouling as possible, pop the cylinder back in and keep shooting. Be sure to lube with Ballistol. Your cleaning solution is up to you, I have said what works best for me.

Incidentally, I slugged the bore with one of my .428 bullets. Because S&W used five groove rifling it is difficult to get an exact measurement of the rifling groove diameter. My best guess is the rifling diameter is about .430. The chambers are right at about .431, so the .428 bullet slips through nicely. The reason I use .428 is I use this same bullet in my 44-40 loads. My 44-40 rifles vary from .427 to .429 for rifling groove diameter. .428 is a good compromise and works well in everything.




Lastly, I guess I have to letter this gun now. Interesting about it possibly being part of a shipment to Japan. I did not buy it as an investment gun, I bought it as a shooter. Don't know if being sent to Japan will have any effect on its value.

By the way, Don looked it over and said the treatment of the lanyard ring indicated it was a custom ordered gun. The SN on the butt is sideways, rather than running the length of the grip frame. He said this is correct for a NM#3 with a lanyard ring installed per a custom order. At least that's what I think he said.

Don?



Got to load up some more 44 Russians today, tomorrow is the last Cowboy match of the year, and I would like it to be New Model Number Three day for me.

 

[rct269]

I used Hoppes black powder product about 20 years ago---on two guns (Ruger Old Army and Thomson Center Arms Hawken) which I shot a lot. The Ruger's gone, and the Hawken is in the rack where it's been for about 20 years----since its last bath.

I got it out not too long ago with an eye towards shooting it again. The bore, protected only by a final pass with the Hoppes product, is perfect---as witnessed by a dry patch which came out clean---rust free.

Needless to say, I didn't believe the clean patch; so off it went to my gunsmith to be examined with a bore scope. It's perfect.

If/when I actually do start using it again, I'm sticking with the Hoppes product. I just checked---they still make it---and I figure today's version is probably better than yesterday's---if that's possible.

As an aside, I was using corn meal as a filler in the revolver (so as to seat the ball flush with the end of the cylinder). The accuracy was GREATLY improved (as expected)----AND the corn meal seemed to be working as a scouring powder---both on the inside AND the outside of the gun. I never figured out why it kept the outside cleaner longer, but it does.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Wiregrassguy]

AND the corn meal seemed to be working as a scouring powder---both on the inside AND the outside of the gun. I never figured out why it kept the outside cleaner longer, but it does.

You must have used the self-rising kind. Everybody knows baking soda is a scour/cleaning agent, especially if you mix it with vinegar.

 

[Masterpiece]

The SN on the butt is sideways, rather than running the length of the grip frame.

Driftwood,

In regards to the Serial No. being stamped sideways on the Butt...Can you see any evidence of the Original Serial No. on either side of the Lanyard Ring??

Reason I ask...Quite a few of the Japanese-Shipped NM#3's are known having the Lanyard Rings installed over top of the Original Serial No. & relocated as you described...Some by S&W before they shipped as well some being installed in Japanese Arsenals after their arrival in Japan!! A Photo would be nice if you could provide one!!

 

[glowe]

I am certainly not implying that you should change your cleaning methods, but rather be aware that if water gets into the cracks and crevices, internal mechanism, or threads of screws, it can cause problems no matter what the mixture.

I have been shooting black powder for about 35 years, using soap and water, with the same results as you, so am sure that if one is careful and uses the cleaning solution sparingly, both are very efficient and give the same results. Of course, you know my long term solution for most of my revolver shooting was not to use BP, but rather come up with safe smokeless loads, and my results are totally successful to date.

I still shoot flintlocks and clean all mine with simple soap and water. These guns get really filthy after a day at the range, lock, stock, barrel, etc. all heavily coated with BP residue. Judicious wiping and swabbing provides great results and finishing with oiling all parts, then using CVA Barrel Blaster patches on the bore keeps the rust totally away. I have long been curious about the value of Ballistol? The worst conditions exist in the barrel of a freshly cleaned muzzle-loader since you cannot totally dry the barrel immediately after cleaning. There is not much air circulation to affect quick drying. I used Ballistol in a cleaned barrel for some time and always got rust on a patch after a couple days. After I started using Barrel Blaster patches, no rust will form, even sets for a few weeks. Wish I knew what the patch is soaked with?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Gary

I started shooting Black Powder in 1968 with my first C&B revolver, so I am certainly not 'wet behind the ears'. In those days I would clean with hot soapy water, just like everybody else. I would tear the gun completely apart, clean off everything with hot soapy water, real hot so the metal would dry because it was so hot. Sometimes I would put the parts in an oven to make them dry faster. Sorry, I don't remember what temperature, it was a long time ago. Not very much hotter than the temperature water boils at, probably. I was always annoyed because the hot metal would always promote 'flash rust', the powdery orange dust on the surface.

Flash forward to about the year 2000 when I got into CAS. I avoided shooting Black Powder because of my memories of the pain that cleaning up afterwards was. That's when I discovered Murphy's Mix and Ballistol, and have been using that regimen ever since. Another advantage is you don't have to heat MMix, room temperature works fine. I usually clean my rifle at my car before I go home, because I don't have to heat the MMix. When I get home I clean the revolvers and the shotgun.

Another thing I have learned over the years is that since we no longer use corrosive primers, BP fouling is not as corrosive as most believe. I seldom clean my Colts the same day I shoot them, I am tired after being on the range all day and then driving home. I have found that waiting a few days does not hurt one bit, and once clean there is never any corrosion.

One thing about cleaning up cartridge revolvers is it is easier than cleaning a C&B revolver. There are no nicks and crannies in the chambers to harbor fouling or crud. No nipples or nipple threads that need to be cleaned. A couple of swipes with a conventional bore brush and whatever your favorite BP solvent is, cleans the chambers in one fell swoop.

I haven't fired a flintlock rifle in many years, probably cleaned it the same way you do. A cartridge rifle is simpler, the bore is open at both ends, so a bore brush can be run completely down. My technique with a rifle is to chamber a spent round and close the breech, to block up the chamber. Then I twirl a bunch of patches soaked with MMix down the bore, retracting each one. I use the slotted end of a cleaning rod for this, not a jag. A jag can jam the patch into the empty in the chamber, which can be a pain. Each patch comes out successively cleaner. When one comes out gray, with no crud on it, I have washed all the fouling down into the empty brass in the chamber and the bore is essentially clean. Then I flip the rifle over and eject the empty. A spray of dirty solvent comes out with it onto the ground. You have to be careful not to get it on you. I swab out the action with MMix, then run a dry bore snake down the bore to soak up all the MMix. I follow this with a patch soaked in Ballistol down the bore, and then a dry one to mop up the excess. This leaves a fine coating of Ballistol in the bore, which prevents rust. A little swabbing of the action with Ballistol, and a few drops down into the action keeps any fouling that got down there oily and also prevents rust.

When I first started shooting BP in CAS I bought a slightly used Uberti '73, chambered for 44-40 with a shiny bore. I had read that scrubbing all the fouling out of thousands of tiny pits in an old bore would take a huge amount of elbow grease to remove all the fouling. Then I thought about it and realized it did not matter if I removed every molecule of fouling from the pitted bore. I had removed the majority of fouling, and running a patch soaked with Ballistol down the bore meant I was soaking what was left with oil. As I stated earlier, BP fouling that has been infused with oil will not cause corrosion. Removing the majority of the fouling with MMix, then soaking what little bit was left freed me up to start shooting antiques with pitted bores. Now I shoot lots of old revolvers and rifles with with pitted bores and don't worry about cleaning every last bit of fouling out of the bores. The Ballistol coating prevents any further rust. Of course the bores on my new NM#3 as well as my nickel plated one, are practically spotless and I will clean them promptly to keep them shiny.

Unlike a revolver, a cartridge rifle is basically a pipe. Depending on how well the brass expands to seal the bore when the cartridge fires, almost all the fouling goes out the bore or stays in the bore. With the old WCF cartridges the brass is very thin at the case mouth, and the brass expands very well at the relatively low pressures generated by BP cartridges, and very little fouling blows back past the cartilage and into the mechanism. Not so with cartridges such as 45 Colt which have thicker brass and do not obturate as well as 44-40 or 38-40. Guys shooting BP in their 45 Colt rifles often have more fouling to clean out, and sometimes the elevator will get sticky on a 45 Colt Henry, '66, or '73. Not so with 44-40 or 38-40, they keep shooting all day with no binding.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Masterpiece:

Here is a photo of the SN on the butt of my new NM#3. I have altered the last two digits of the SN, but you get the idea. There is clearly something marked to the left of the lanyard ring boss, or whatever it's called. When Don looked at it he thought it was the remnants of the original SN that had been polished away before the current SN was marked. I could not see well enough to make it out. However looking at this photo, the marking almost looks like a proof mark of some type to me. My brain is trying to make it look like a winged eagle with a sideways letter A over the top.

What do you think?

Just for the heck of it, here is the legend on top of the barrel rib. No blue left in this area.

There is also a small trademark on the right side of the frame. Other than the SNs on the rear of the cylinder, and the latch, this is all the markings on the outside of the gun.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Regarding corn meal in BP cartridges: It is fairly common to use various types of cereal as filler in cartridges loaded with Black Powder. Fillers are added to reduce the powder charge while still preventing empty air space in the cartridge. Empty air space with Black Powder cartridges is a very bad thing. Powder charges are usually reduced to reduce recoil. There is also the idea that using fillers increases the economy of shooting Black Powder because less powder will be burned.

The most common filler I see mentioned all the time is grits. When I first started loading 45 Colt with Black Powder I was using a little bit of corn meal as a filler, mostly under a 200 grain bullet to reduce recoil. I quit adding filler pretty early on, it unnecessarily complicated the loading process. One more thing to deal with, and the savings in powder was not worth the extra effort. I eventually went back to a full charge of about 35 grains of FFg under a 250 grain bullet.