A sad 1917 .45acp

[TC Rider]

I have this post war model 1917 with a 6" pencil barrel on approval. I need to decide by this weekend whether to keep it or not.

It's seen better days. As a collectable, it's not much. A previous owner had it reblued and most of the etchings are illegible. They also put swirlies on the trigger and hammer.

It's not too bad a shooter as seen in the photos, the shots were taken at 15 yards free hand and as a regular shooter of a modern 625, I was not comfy with the grips. It shot without spitting lead out the sides, and the lockup is tight.

It came to me dirty and after cleaning it, I found the barrel is pitted near the muzzle. The grips are cracked. Also, the metal is chewed up on the face of the cylinder guard from the star chewing it up. (you can see it on the second pic just in front of the latch)

My thought is to do a 'Fitz Special' job on it. Slice off the pitted barrel, cut it down to about 3", get it refinished in something gaudy, maybe bright chrome or nickle. I'm not sure about removing the front of the trigger guard.

I love belly guns and have 3" models 24 and 29.

I'm taking it by a gunsmith friend on Saturday for his opinion on the internals and fixing the cylinder so it doesn't rub the frame.

It will take $400 to own the gun and probably at least that much more to pimp it out. I think the current owner is a bit high on his price, but then I've never seen a 1917 priced this low either.

Is it worth it?

 

[Dan Cash]

Save your money. Too many better candidates around and the gun is throwing bullets every where.

 

[10-12]

It is not only way over priced in my opinion, it isn't even a candidate for what you want to do. With the over-buffing and reblue, I would not put a lot into it. If it was $200 and I knew someone who could cheaply silver solder on a half-way decent front after I cut the barrel myself, I'd consider it.

By the way, I empathize with you. I ,too, would like a Fitz Special except for cutting the trigger guard. I found one already cut to 3 " with an old renickel for $250. Actually, it was partially nickel and partially rust. The rifling was pitted and the cylinder had so much end shake it misfired. It would take .45 ACP with clips or .45 Colt. Now that's end shake.

Sadly, I must agree with Dan.

Bill

 

[TC Rider]

When I first saw it, I didn't have my 'readers'. It wasn't till hours later at home that I actually 'saw' it, warts and all.

I had grown fond of it in the interim.

 

[Art Doc]

It took me many years to realize that orphan or project guns are a bad idea. You never make it the way you want for a reasonable amount of money. I have learned to walk away from the homely guns unless it's just cosmetic, the price is right and I can live with the flaws as a shooter.

By the way, "pencil barrel" is an unfortunate and incorrect term. Standard or tapered barrel is correct and since this model was never offered with a heavy barrel it's pointless to describe the barrel (which is 5.5" on this model) at all since they are all the same.

 

[TC Rider]

Pencil or not, it is a longer barrel than the military model, if that matters.

I agree, in hindsight, it was a poor choice of words.

 

[M29since14]

When I first saw it, I didn't have my 'readers'. It wasn't till hours later at home that I actually 'saw' it, warts and all.
I had grown fond of it in the interim.

I hear you, brother.

The gun seems to be keyholing a couple of the rounds, but that is probably due to the damage at the muzzle. The engine turning is a huge turn-off for me, but it probably can be "fixed" by some careful work and beadblasting. Won't bring the color case back, but will look better. Not much you can do to restore the lettering and trademarks. All in all, I agree with the idea that it is overpriced but, like you, I always seem to see possibilities in these old wrecks.

If, mechanically, the gun operates properly and I thought I could find another barrel (shouldn't be too hard), I would probably try to buy it for the least $$ possible, in spite of it all.

 

[Sven]

I've not heard much mention of it around this board, but you might be able to fire lap the barrel to smooth out some of the pitting. It often will help quite a bit with cast bullets. You should be able to get more info on fire lapping from LBT or Beartooth Bullets.

 

[Joni_Lynn]

I think I'd pass on it.

 

[Art Doc]

To the best of my knowledge all the 1917s had 5.5" barrels.

Chopping the barrel is OK as long as you don't remove the ejector rod latch, but cutting away the trigger guard is a very bad and dangerous idea.

 

[Jack Flash]

It does look like someone installed a different (longer) barrel on this one. I wonder if it's a 6.5" barrel off an HE2 made for the .455 Webley. Or if the entire revolver is a .455 converted to .45 ACP. The pix are a little fuzzy for my old eyes to get much detail. Are any markings decipherable? If so, please let us know what they are.

It does seem to have had a lot done to it, removing any collector value. Those "stags" look like plastic. Too bad it doesn't at least have the original stocks.

If you just have to buy it, that's your choice. Go into the deal with your eyes wide open. A general rule of thumb is that ANY N-Frame in decent condition is worth $400, so you will not get hurt too bad. For once in my life, I am with the majority on this one, however. I would walk away from this mongrel.

 

[TC Rider]

To the best of my knowledge all the 1917s had 5.5" barrels.

Chopping the barrel is OK as long as you don't remove the ejector rod latch, but cutting away the trigger guard is a very bad and dangerous idea.

I like the whole concept of the 'Fitz Special' but the cutting of the trigger guard does bother me too. I've done a bit more reading and it appears the original purpose was to accomodate gloves. Problem solved, I'll keep the trigger guard and ditch the gloves. I compete in IDPA and have never felt the trigger guard was an obstacle for getting onto the trigger.

 

[TC Rider]

It does look like someone installed a different (longer) barrel on this one. I wonder if it's a 6.5" barrel off an HE2 made for the .455 Webley. Or if the entire revolver is a .455 converted to .45 ACP. The pix are a little fuzzy for my old eyes to get much detail. Are any markings decipherable? If so, please let us know what they are.

It does seem to have had a lot done to it, removing any collector value. Those "stags" look like plastic. Too bad it doesn't at least have the original stocks.

If you just have to buy it, that's your choice. Go into the deal with your eyes wide open. A general rule of thumb is that ANY N-Frame in decent condition is worth $400, so you will not get hurt too bad. For once in my life, I am with the majority on this one, however. I would walk away from this mongrel.

The pictures were done with my phone at the range today, but the actual marking are not much better because of the lousy re-blueing.

The stocks are plastic, and cracked, throwaways.

On the left side of the barrel is "SMITH & WESSON .45 AR". It looks like something may be after the '.45' and the 'AR' is slightly off center.

Top of the barrel, "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A"
Next line, "PATENTED OCT.8.1901.DEC.17.1901.FEB.6.1906"

Under the crane, on the frame '4538'

On the crane itself, another '4538' and a large X that looks like it was done by hand with a scribe.

On the butt, "308XX" and, on the bottom of the barrel, under the extractor rod is "B-F 308XX" with the same number as on the butt.

A S&W logo on the sideplate.

 

[TC Rider]

To the best of my knowledge all the 1917s had 5.5" barrels.

Chopping the barrel is OK as long as you don't remove the ejector rod latch, but cutting away the trigger guard is a very bad and dangerous idea.

I went back and checked and the barrel is an honest 6.5" from cylinder face to muzzle.

 

[TC Rider]

LOL, I keep finding marks, there is another "B-F" on the cylinder, under the star.

There are no military markings, no flaming bomb

 

[Jack Flash]

I went back and checked and the barrel is an honest 6.5" .... On the left side of the barrel is "SMITH & WESSON .45 AR"...

Sure sounds like a converted .455. The serial number (308XX on the butt) falls right in the heart of the range for .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Models produced 1915 - 1917. These were originally made for the British and Canadian Armed Forces and many were sold as surplus after World War I.

Many of these re-imports were converted, sometimes with great skill, sometimes with very little skill, to .45 ACP / .45 Auto Rim, which has always been much more commonly available in the US.

 

[TC Rider]

Sure sounds like a converted .455. The serial number (308XX on the butt) falls right in the heart of the range for .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Models produced 1915 - 1917. These were originally made for the British and Canadian Armed Forces and many were sold as surplus after World War I.

Many of these re-imports were converted, sometimes with great skill, sometimes with very little skill, to .45 ACP / .45 Auto Rim, which has always been much more commonly available in the US.

I think you've nailed it. One of the 1917 etchings missing from mine is the 'Made in the USA' on the right side of the frame, in front of the sideplate. I notice in pics I've found of the .455 that it lacks that.

Aside from all the faults previously noted, the s/n's do match up between barrel, grip, cylinder and star. The fit of the barrel and other parts are good. The workmanship on the cylinder to convert it to moonclips is very good.

I'll be making up my mind on whether or not to keep it over the weekend.

It obviously has no collector value that I know of, thanks to the crappy refinish. Questionable as a shooter in its present condition with the pitted bore, near the muzzle.

In making a 'Fitz Special' though, if I found something nicer, would I have the heart to chop it up? Cutting the barrel off of this one would solve the pitting problem. Stripping the finish and getting it plated would do away with the crappy bluing.

My biggest issue right now is the price, I think $400 is way over the top. My inclination is to offer $200 and maybe go to $250. Otherwise it can go home with it's current owner.

 

[Jack Flash]

... The workmanship on the cylinder to convert it to moonclips is very good...

... I think $400 is way over the top. My inclination is to offer $200 and maybe go to $250. Otherwise it can go home with it's current owner.

Given that it was a skillfully done conversion, I think your plan to make an offer is the right course of action. Perhaps when you point out to the seller that it is not a Model of 1917, not to mention its other issues, he will soften substantially on the price. If not, save your money for the next one.

Good Luck!

 

[bubbajoe45]

I think you've nailed it. One of the 1917 etchings missing from mine is the 'Made in the USA' on the right side of the frame, in front of the sideplate. I notice in pics I've found of the .455 that it lacks that.

Aside from all the faults previously noted, the s/n's do match up between barrel, grip, cylinder and star. The fit of the barrel and other parts are good. The workmanship on the cylinder to convert it to moonclips is very good.

I'll be making up my mind on whether or not to keep it over the weekend.

It obviously has no collector value that I know of, thanks to the crappy refinish. Questionable as a shooter in its present condition with the pitted bore, near the muzzle.

In making a 'Fitz Special' though, if I found something nicer, would I have the heart to chop it up? Cutting the barrel off of this one would solve the pitting problem. Stripping the finish and getting it plated would do away with the crappy bluing.

My biggest issue right now is the price, I think $400 is way over the top. My inclination is to offer $200 and maybe go to $250. Otherwise it can go home with it's current owner.

I think you've nailed it, TC! You likely wouldn't want to chop up a nicer one, and you've made a very convincing case for going ahead with it (solve the pitting problem & refinish). I paid $450 for mine (a run-of-the-mill 1917), and the 'smithing total will be pushing $500. I started with an original finish with finish damage outside and pitting inside the barrel, but the rest of it wasn't in terrible shape. I am having the bbl. cut to 3 1/2", hammer semi-bobbed, trigger radiused and polished, and charge holes chamfered. But, I have had some self-doubt about having butchered up a piece of history. On the other hand, I think I'll end up with a very cool, one-of-a-kind gun. Perhaps Saxon is right, and it'll take me years to learn. However, for you with this gun there will be no remorse . . . offer him $300 and go forward - it sounds like you want to!

 

[Buford57]

If this is a converted .455 HE 2nd and the cylinder still has a visible SN, then I would expect the conversion to have been done by machining off some of the recoil shield, although this is not apparent in your pictures.

I have one of these conversions, but the machining was done to the rear of the cylinder. Interestingly enough, mine does well with 230 gr hardball, but keyholes 255 lead AR rounds. The ".45 AR" marking is a giveaway to a conversion since many of the .455 HE were not caliber marked. Mine is marked ".45 A.C." with an abundance of British proof and "Not English Made" on the left frame below the cylinder window.

Yours sounds like an ideal candidate for the belly gun treatment if you can get the price down significantly below 3 bills.