Accidental discharge question

[bullseye shooter]

I got involved in a discussion about accidental discharges of semi-auto pistols when dropped. The main topic of this discussion was a statement made as follows: "Something that is very common is someone fires a semi-auto, then drops it and it fires again". Did I miss the boat? I have never heard of this scenario, much less it being a very common event. This came up based on the accidental shooting in the Birmingham, Alabama school. Thanks for any input.

 

[jimbo728]

First Gen Model 39 39-2 and 59 pistols were known to go off if dropped with the safety in fire and a loaded chamber.
If dropped on the muzzle from a distance of > 3` it will discharge, was the warning written by Massad Ayoob, back in the early `80`s.
There have been reports that this has happened.
A drop safety was added to 3rd Gen Smith 9`s to eliminate this fault.
I cant be objective about this with other pistols but was aware because I have owned and have a long interest in the Smith 9`s.
Jim

 

[rwsmith]

There are usually.....

There are usually safeguards built into modern pistols. Any of the brands I've buy do drop testing, but nothing is perfect. I believe that a pistol of recent make was known to fail. Usually 'Accidental' discharge here is termed 'Negligent' discharge, but if there is a such thing as accidental, I think a gun hitting the floor would qualify if not done carelessly.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Old person (73) checking in. Although there ARE a few autoloaders still around that may discharge if dropped, most experienced pistol shooters will tell you that most reports of discharge of dropped guns are simply lies expressed by people who wish not to acknowledge that the gun discharged because the guilty party pulled the trigger. That goes double for "I was cleaning it and . . . "

If one were to believe the stories told, one should NEVER clean any gun. That is documented (by credulous "journalists") to be THE most dangerous thing that anyone could ever do with a gun.

 

[.455_Hunter]

A drop safety was added to 3rd Gen Smith 9`s to eliminate this fault.

The change was for the 2nd Generation and continued into the 3rd.

 

[.455_Hunter]

The drop fire threat was a problem for some of the earlier designs, but this was generally rectified in the 80's with positive firing pin blocks.

Unfortunately, it has popped back-up on a few polywonderstrikers like the SR9, P320 and Honor Guard.

 

[Barrie]

I would like to know just how some Dummy would clean a gun with a live round in it. To me you have to tear the gun apart to do a proper cleaning and would spot a live round long before any accident could occur. But there are some very stupid people out there. WE have all met them somewhere along the way.

 

[Wise_A]

Most of the time, drop-discharges are a result of someone trying to catch the gun as it falls.

There have been a few recent releases with questionable drop-safety (Sig P320, Honor Guard, etc) but most pistols that have been on the market for awhile are fine. Pretty much every major pistol manufacturer has managed to release a drop-fail gun.

As for Birmingham, this event is obviously a complete hoax fabricated by the media. After all, it's literally impossible. Not only was the school clearly marked as a "gun-free zone", but the 17-year old that allegedly did the shooting was only 17. As such, he is not permitted to have a gun in any state in the union.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Felon shoots a girl in a school, media characterizes it as an "accident", and I lose my friggin' sense of humor about things.

 

[Peak53]

"I was cleaning the gun ... and it went off" is doublespeak for "I was going to clean the gun ... and I pulled the trigger to make sure it was empty." Don't do that.

 

[k22fan]

There are lots of modern plastic wonder pistols that I am not familiar with so I'll only comment on familiar old designs.

While the possibility of 1st generation S&W autos, pre-Series 80 1911s, etc. going off if they land on their muzzle can be demonstrated in "drop tests" that do not involve actually dropping the pistol, I've never heard of that happening in the real world. Think about it. Both revolvers and automatics are top and rear end heavy. If either falls out of a holster at waist height they land on their rear sight butt up. Handguns are not supposed to fall out of holsters but with some holster designs that forum members still advocate it can happen. Suppose that a cocked Model 59 or cocked pre-Series 80 1911 with its thumb safety off were dropped and landed on their hammer or from the jot the sear lost the full cock notch. With normal sear spring tension the half cock notch will catch the hammer.

If you want to reduce the number of negligent discharges that actually do happen then be damn careful drawing and, more importantly, reholstering.

 

[BigBoy99]

As for Birmingham, this event is obviously a complete hoax fabricated by the media. After all, it's literally impossible. Not only was the school clearly marked as a "gun-free zone", but the 17-year old that allegedly did the shooting was only 17. As such, he is not permitted to have a gun in any state in the union.

Just like when the media quote statistics about kids being killed by firearms. The media defines kids as being anyone under the age of 30. This way they can include all of the gang related killings as "children" being killed.

 

[Doug M.]

I know an officer (now retired) who such an AD with a series 70 1911 while on duty. It can happen with some designs, most of which are older or of poor quality. It is not common, and should not happen with the majority of quality firearms.

 

[Jonnyuma]

"Safe Action" pistols like Glock, XD, PPQ, PPS, HK VPs, et al, are considered drop safe due to their combination of trigger design and/or grip safety, manual safety, and/or striker safety. An unsafe handgun will be uncloseted PDQ (a la SiG P320) and market-forced to un-F it most ricky-tick.

A lot of people remember the scene from True Lies where (a still hot) Jamie Lee Curtis drops an Uzi (or MAC 10...whatever) and as it tumbles down the stairs discharges FFA... That's the extent of most people's ND knowledge... what they saw in an action movie one time.

 

[bigggbbruce]

Dropped my 908 the other day. Hit the floor on the hammer, pointing right at me(safety off).

I'm still here.

 

[k22fan]

I know an officer (now retired) who such an AD with a series 70 1911 while on duty. It can happen with some designs, most of which are older or of poor quality. It is not common, and should not happen with the majority of quality firearms.

Do you know what part of his 1911 contacted the ground first?

 

[Wise_A]

With regard to the 1911, it honestly doesn't really matter. A drop-discharge is the result of a combination of failures in fitting. There are better than half a dozen different things you can screw up to make a drop-firing 1911, and beating on the hammer itself isn't the only way to make it go off.

It's easier to simply say that carrying a pistol with a 2# match trigger isn't a super-sharp idea, and that learning how to do a comprehensive, component-by-component function test is a valuable skill.

 

[X ring hunter]

Another gun manufacturer (Taurus Arms) just went thru a multi-year class action lawsuit regarding this exact scenario. Turned in (2) first gen pistols that were listed.

The Taurus pistols were my first foray into the realm of the 40 S&W caliber... now replaced with a pair of (his and hers) SW40VE.

 

[Doug M.]

Do you know what part of his 1911 contacted the ground first?

*
I may have known at one time, but I don't recall now. People I respect have informed me that the old claim of how the Series 80 pieces screw up the trigger pull is not really valid, and when the carry/carried a 1911, that's what they had. I would not have a pistol with the Schwartz safety as they are failure prone unless perfect. A firearm that does not fire when needed is as bad as one that fires when it is not supposed to.

 

[Fishinfool]

One gun that can, and will fire if dropped with the safety off anyway, is the S&W model 41. Seen it happen. I was the one who dropped it, and it definitely didn't fire until it hit the ground. I am still amazed my shooting buddy or me didn't have any extra holes in us. Happened about 35 years ago, but I still remember it clearly.

Larry

 

[k22fan]

[...] People I respect have informed me that the old claim of how the Series 80 pieces screw up the trigger pull is not really valid, [...]

I have not owned a 1911 that was manufactured by Colt and also had a series 80 firing pin safety. However, I did measure the effect of removing the series 80 plunger from a Colt Double Eagle. They use the same upper half except their slides have different recesses for disconnectors to rise up into and of course no notch for a thumb safety to rise up into. Removing the plunger & spring lowered SA trigger pull 4 ounces. I put them right back in.

On the other hand, removing the firing pin safety plunger from my S&W Model 4516 lowered its SA pull by an amount measured in pounds, not ounces. 3rd generation autos do not have a half cock so they need their firing pin safety plunger.

Like Wise_A wrote, to judge whether a dropped pistol that dischrarged indicates the model is hazardous we need to know if the pistol's safety was compromised by home gunsmithing efforts to give it a lighter trigger pull, etc.