Accuracy and MOA question

[salester]

As I understand it, 1 MOA is 1.05 inches at 100 yds. Does that mean if your rifle is accurate to 1 MOA, you will end up with a group in 2.1 inh group?

On the SW site, they list their performance rifles as having MOA (I'm assuming 1) barrels. I don't the same thing listed for any of the tactical rifles.

I've only had a chance to shoot my m&p15OR a couple of times and changed scope in between. Today I was shooting 3 inch diameter groups on a windy day with Herters and American Eagle ammo. With my 20 year old Savage 112 (cheapest 223 i could find at the time), I shot a 10 shot group with 9 within 1.5 inches. Ammo was Fiocchi 50 gr V-Max. One thing I noticed is the old Tasco I have on the Savage has fine crosshairs with small dot that is less than a half inch at 100 yds. The M&P has a nikon coyote with a ring that is 2 inches at 100 yds. The dot is a lot easier to use for target practice.

Has anyone shot V-Max? I assumed the semi-auto action would damage the tips.

So, What types of groups are you guys getting out of the box? Ammo? Modifications that helped.

 

[s&wchad]

As I understand it, 1 MOA is 1.05 inches at 100 yds. Does that mean if your rifle is accurate to 1 MOA, you will end up with a group in 2.1 inh group?

Welcome to the forum.

A minute is 1/60th of a degree. If you’re shooting at 100 yds (3600 inches), think of a circle with that length radius. The formula for the circumference of a circle is 2piR which equals 22,619.47 inches at 100 yds. Divide that by 360 deg and you get 62.83 inches per degree. Divide that distance per degree by 60 minutes and you have 1.047 inches per minute (1 inch is close enough for me).

A 1 MOA rifle should be capable of placing a certain number of rounds of specific ammunition into a 1.05” circle at 100 yards under controlled conditions, as defined by the manufacturer. Varying winds and standard commercial grade ammunition can easily more than double that number.


FWIW, Kimber shoots 3 shot groups with custom loaded ammunition at 40 yards in an indoor tunnel with a 36X Leupold Benchrest scope. YMMV!

 

[salester]

Makes sense. I wasn't sure if MOA was a measurement or a plus or minus degree of error Thank you.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

Your M&P has a chrome lined barrel that helps with corrosion and barrel life, the drawback is loss of accuracy, you can expect 2-3 inch groups with it depending on ammo. If you want a super accurate AR you will need to get a match grade stainless barrel for it.

It also has a 5.56 chamber instead of the .223 chamber that your savage has, this means the throat is longer which allows it to shoot the higher pressure nato rounds but hurts the accuracy. Again you can get a match grade barrel with the SAM-R or wylde chamber which will help accuracy and still allow you to shoot the 5.56 nato rounds.

*EDIT* I just noticed that your gun has plastic handguards, you will need a free float system of some kind to maximize the accuracy.

 

[MPDC]

Your M&P has a chrome lined barrel that helps with corrosion and barrel life, the drawback is loss of accuracy, you can expect 2-3 inch groups with it depending on ammo. If you want a super accurate AR you will need to get a match grade stainless barrel for it.

It also has a 5.56 chamber instead of the .223 chamber that your savage has, this means the throat is longer which allows it to shoot the higher pressure nato rounds but hurts the accuracy. Again you can get a match grade barrel with the SAM-R or wylde chamber which will help accuracy and still allow you to shoot the 5.56 nato rounds.

*EDIT* I just noticed that your gun has plastic handguards, you will need a free float system of some kind to maximize the accuracy.

At carbine length distances, none of that means too much , IMHO. At 100 yds. and under, sub 3" groups are certainly possible and M193 boat tail rounds are pretty accurate.

Competitive target shooters (NOT three gun or combat courses) rarely choose a carbine as their target rifle but it makes plenty of sense for defensive use and three gun competitions.

MOA is a means of measurement, period. Not a goal or magic formula. Just gives the relative position of your strike vs. your aim point. The distance an MOA represents changes with distance to your target and 1.05" (appx.) only applies at 100 yds. Knowing the range and distance off target, MOA is a means of adjusting your scope(in clicks representing fractions of MOA) to zero in on your target.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

At carbine length distances, none of that means too much , IMHO. At 100 yds. and under, sub 3" groups are certainly possible and M193 boat tail rounds are pretty accurate.

Competitive target shooters (NOT three gun or combat courses) rarely choose a carbine as their target rifle but it makes plenty of sense for defensive use and three gun competitions.

MOA is a means of measurement, period. Not a goal or magic formula. Just gives the relative position of your strike vs. your aim point. The distance an MOA represents changes with distance to your target and 1.05" (appx.) only applies at 100 yds. Knowing the range and distance off target, MOA is a means of adjusting your scope(in clicks representing fractions of MOA) to zero in on your target.

You are correct inside 100 yards a 3 inch group is more than adequate. The OP put a scope on it and was comparing the accuracy to his savage bolt gun so I assumed he was going to be target shooting or hunting further than 100 yards and wanted all the accuracy he could get.

 

[MPDC]

You are correct but I was trying to point out to the OP that carbines and uber accuracy, long range are apples and oranges, sort of.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

I agree his gun is not designed for long range, but if the proper upgrades were made it would be very accurate. A longer barrel wont make it more accurate just gives more speed which would allow you to shoot a bit further, not more accurate.

The seals saw some sort of need for an accurate 16in barreled AR when they went with the RECCE rifle.

 

[Homie]

Gents,
Groups are measured center to center of the widest shots, not edge to edge. An inch per 100 yards is the commonly accepted standard, but a 1" group will not fit inside a 1"circle.
I've never been impressed with the accuracy of most M193 Ball- real or quasi- and certainly wouldn't rate a barrel with it.
Also, FYI, parallax is a common problem at 100 yards because scopes without a parallax adjustment are set parallax free at 150/200 yards. Inexpensive scopes are notorious for parallax issues.

Good shooting.

 

[salester]

Thanks guys. You are right, i was comparing apples and oranges and i knew that. After reading a few posts on here I thought possibly all M&P's would be more accurate than what I have seen so far. The scope does have a parallax adjustment but I have not yet shot it on an ideally calm day yet. I Think on the right day it will shoot 2 inch groups with low cost ammo.

In reality, accuracy isn't why I bought it. I bought a 15-22 for my 16 year old in January that he loves and we have enjoyed shooting together when weather permits. We also shoot pistols, muzzleloaders, and centerfire rifles as well as trap and skeet but the ammo costs add up fast. After looking at and researching a lot of .223 AR rifles I chose the S&W because it seemed to be a light weight rifle that is dependable and will shot any thing you load it up with. Up to this point it's all good fun. I looked at a lot of heavy barrel guns, but they just aren't as fun to plink with as a 6.5 lb gun.

If we decide to drive 6 hours to go prairie dog hunting, I'll find a good long range gun for him to use and he can use this one for short distance. If not, we have a gun we can shoot cheap ammo all day long for the next couple of years until he goes off to college.

One question that didn't get answered is can you shoot V-Max or ballistic tip ammo in a semi auto without problems.

Thanks again.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

Yes ballistic tip ammo works just fine in autoloaders.