In the early 1960s I was in the Army but served on three Air Force Radar Squadrons. The Air Police there carried Combat Masterpiece revolvers. I presume they were marked USAF or something similiar. When these became obsolete (with the adoption of the Beretta 92?) did any of them make it out into the civilian market or were they all destroyed?
Air Force Combat Masterpiece
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They weren't destroyed as far as I know, but none have ever been officially released for public sale.
However...some are on the market.
I've posted this one a few times, but it's one of my favorites.
However...some are on the market.
I've posted this one a few times, but it's one of my favorites.
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They weren't destroyed as far as I know, but none have ever been officially released for public sale.
However...some are on the market.
I've posted this one a few times, but it's one of my favorites.
Gorgeous. You can tell the air farce didn't require the carriers of that particular piece to train much.
Texas Star
US Veteran
They seem never to have been sold as surplus, but examples are in civilian hands. I think they represent stolen guns. Some have appeared on this board, one now being for sale in Europe. It has seen better days, but is supposedly identifiable as a USAF piece. No way to know how it came on the market, probably.
FYI, the guns seem all to have had target hammers and triggers, and can be distinguished from the civilian M-15 by the initials U.S.A.F stamped above the trigger on the left side of the frame. Someone will probably post a photo of one. (NOTE: this was typed as the above posts were being made.)
Some were reportedly refinished in a Parkerized finish by military armorers.
All that I saw while in the Air Force had the regular bright blue finish.
There was a snub version, called the M-56 by the AF.It was presumably the forerunner to the snub M-15. I think these had the standard hammer and trigger. Frankly, I prefer those to the target version. Gen. LeMay had some idea that the target features would enhance qualifying.
In addition to Air Police/Security Forces, the Combat Masterpiece was often issued to aircrew, combat control teams, pararescuemen, OSI agents, and, probably, others. From the early 1960's until 1985, it was the standard USAF handgun,although supplemented by others.
Someone posted here a few days ago that a genuine example sells for about $1500-2500, depending on condition, and who has it. Unless you're a collector, you'd be FAR better off to look for a civilian example for maybe $400. Apart from those four letters above the trigger, you'd have the same gun, and no chance of being busted for being in possession of stolen government property. Not that I really think that is likely unless you display the gun openly and brag how rare it is. Then some jealous jerk may turn you in...
LATER: the same goes for the Air Police badge in the photo above. Those were controlled items, which allowed access to many restricted areas, as well as identifying an Air Force cop. I had to turn mine in when I left active duty. (The policy on that may well have changed over the years.) I still remember my badge number...
T-Star
FYI, the guns seem all to have had target hammers and triggers, and can be distinguished from the civilian M-15 by the initials U.S.A.F stamped above the trigger on the left side of the frame. Someone will probably post a photo of one. (NOTE: this was typed as the above posts were being made.)
Some were reportedly refinished in a Parkerized finish by military armorers.
All that I saw while in the Air Force had the regular bright blue finish.
There was a snub version, called the M-56 by the AF.It was presumably the forerunner to the snub M-15. I think these had the standard hammer and trigger. Frankly, I prefer those to the target version. Gen. LeMay had some idea that the target features would enhance qualifying.
In addition to Air Police/Security Forces, the Combat Masterpiece was often issued to aircrew, combat control teams, pararescuemen, OSI agents, and, probably, others. From the early 1960's until 1985, it was the standard USAF handgun,although supplemented by others.
Someone posted here a few days ago that a genuine example sells for about $1500-2500, depending on condition, and who has it. Unless you're a collector, you'd be FAR better off to look for a civilian example for maybe $400. Apart from those four letters above the trigger, you'd have the same gun, and no chance of being busted for being in possession of stolen government property. Not that I really think that is likely unless you display the gun openly and brag how rare it is. Then some jealous jerk may turn you in...
LATER: the same goes for the Air Police badge in the photo above. Those were controlled items, which allowed access to many restricted areas, as well as identifying an Air Force cop. I had to turn mine in when I left active duty. (The policy on that may well have changed over the years.) I still remember my badge number...
T-Star
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I tried to turn in my badge when I got out, but they told me to keep it, so I did.
It's the one I wore for my entire 4 years.
It's the one I wore for my entire 4 years.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Jay-
Congratulations. Maybe by the time that happened, the design was changing? I was in during the 1960's and the Cold War was sometimes just short of hot. That may have made a difference. And some supply officers were probably more lax than others.
I even had to return my night stick to get a release from Supply. But I'm sure that some bases were more strict than others.
You have a valuable momento there. Take care of it. I think it should be a family heirloom! When I was in, unneeded badges were decreed destroyed by ball peen hammers, lest they get into the wrong hands.
T-Star
handejector
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T-Star,
You don't know that they were stolen.
We believe the AF transferred some to civilian police departments. From there, they made their way into the open market when the departments probably traded them to a wholesaler for new guns.
One that I owned came throough a full bird that retired from Warner Robbins.
I doubt he stole it.
Perhaps he bought it.
Perhaps someone with enough rank said "write it off".
Likewise, we often have S&W's turn up that won't letter because they are open on the books, meaning no record of shipment. That does not mean they were stolen.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Hand Ejector-
Just saw your post.
You have a good point, and I am NOT accusing anyone in particular of taking either gun or badge. I know of another badge in the hands of a well know gun writer who has photographed it in his articles. He would hardly do that, unless he felt that it was no problem.
My concern is simply that, with an anti-gun administration in power, unless one can prove how he came by such an item, it may lead to controversy. Of course, that has been true for generations! I gather that this is seldom addressed by the authorities. Still, I'd feel better if I could document how I came by such a purchase. I am quite sure that some retiring officers were allowed to take them, then later sold them, or their heirs did. Others vanished from inventories via various means. Again, I am not implying that JayCee or anyone else has done anything wrong. I was speaking strictly in generalities. And being on the conservative side, at that. What I should have said is that some examples MAY represent items that did not officially leave Air Force custody.
Just saw your post.
You have a good point, and I am NOT accusing anyone in particular of taking either gun or badge. I know of another badge in the hands of a well know gun writer who has photographed it in his articles. He would hardly do that, unless he felt that it was no problem.
My concern is simply that, with an anti-gun administration in power, unless one can prove how he came by such an item, it may lead to controversy. Of course, that has been true for generations! I gather that this is seldom addressed by the authorities. Still, I'd feel better if I could document how I came by such a purchase. I am quite sure that some retiring officers were allowed to take them, then later sold them, or their heirs did. Others vanished from inventories via various means. Again, I am not implying that JayCee or anyone else has done anything wrong. I was speaking strictly in generalities. And being on the conservative side, at that. What I should have said is that some examples MAY represent items that did not officially leave Air Force custody.
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handejector
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"I think they represent stolen guns."
You should not have made this statement.
As I stated above, there is evidence that the AF transferred some to PD's.
How many 1911's and 1917's have we seen butchered by grinding off the "US Property" stamps because some idiot thought it meant it was stolen?
The gun pictured here came through a pawn shop, meaning the number was run through the computer by the police department. Had it been listed as stolen, it would not be seen here.
So, you cast doubt on every AF Mod 15 out there, whether released legally or not. Researching the paper trail on military weapons is nigh on impossible. It probably exists, but having the time and resources and access to find it is seldom possible.
Therefore, it would be better to assume one is legal till it is proven otherwise. Your statement does us no service.
You should not have made this statement.
As I stated above, there is evidence that the AF transferred some to PD's.
How many 1911's and 1917's have we seen butchered by grinding off the "US Property" stamps because some idiot thought it meant it was stolen?
The gun pictured here came through a pawn shop, meaning the number was run through the computer by the police department. Had it been listed as stolen, it would not be seen here.
So, you cast doubt on every AF Mod 15 out there, whether released legally or not. Researching the paper trail on military weapons is nigh on impossible. It probably exists, but having the time and resources and access to find it is seldom possible.
Therefore, it would be better to assume one is legal till it is proven otherwise. Your statement does us no service.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Okay. Read my amended post, which I made before I just saw your last one. My intial choice of words was too absolute. And the basic issue has existed not just for these guns but for all sorts of government property that was never officially released in large quantities.
I have no idea where the particular gun you mentioned came from; you are surely well satisfied that it is legit, and you seem to know its background. I certainly don't think one would be displayed here unless the owner felt secure that he held it properly.
My caveat was couched in broad terms, and not in reference to any particular example. I hope that my prior post made that clear, but here it is again, in case anyone misunderstood. I was certainly NOT trying to do either the board or any particular individual a disservice.
If anyone thought otherwise, my apologies. By the time that I realized that the initial post could be misinterpreted, you had already seen it and posted.
Sorry: I should have phrased that note of caution better in the first place. Or, maybe just avoided the issue, which has the potential to be controversial.
T-Star
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Jay, nice example and great provenance. Nice magnas on that one in particular.
Chuck
Chuck
Those badges are obsolete. The USAF dumped them several years ago as surplus. You can buy them on EBay.
cgt4570
Member
Lee, T-Star,
At this point it shouldn't really matter how they found their way to the market. Any statute of limitations should have expired years ago.
At this point it shouldn't really matter how they found their way to the market. Any statute of limitations should have expired years ago.
SWID
SWCA Memebr
I was aircrew (C 5 FE) and during the time when it was all the rage to hijack airplanes we carried snubby 15s. I think they were called 56s, I can't remember what but it was not a 15. Once a year we had to go to the range and shoot 50 rounds of ammo. The ejector rods kept coming loose.
What we carried in the gun was three rounds of ball ammo and three (the first three) rounds of that pellets in a bag stuff.
When I retired I took my flight gear to supply (including a very expensive arctic flight jacket) and was told to keep it. I still have it. Anybody want a bunch of zoom bags, size 38 long?
What we carried in the gun was three rounds of ball ammo and three (the first three) rounds of that pellets in a bag stuff.
When I retired I took my flight gear to supply (including a very expensive arctic flight jacket) and was told to keep it. I still have it. Anybody want a bunch of zoom bags, size 38 long?
MaineProbation
Member
LeMay and revolvers
My understanding is that General LeMay disliked the M1911A1 and preferred revolvers. He was commanding officer of SAC from its inception around 1947 until 1957 and then became Chief of Staff until 1965. AF personnel either loved him or hated him as did many politicians. However, when the flak started flying I bet anyone would prefer him driving left seat. I suspect he was personally involved in the Aircrewman (aluminum snub-nose revolvers for air crews) program, choice for the Model 15 for Air Police, and eventually the Model 56 for air crews, missile crews, etc.
My understanding is that General LeMay disliked the M1911A1 and preferred revolvers. He was commanding officer of SAC from its inception around 1947 until 1957 and then became Chief of Staff until 1965. AF personnel either loved him or hated him as did many politicians. However, when the flak started flying I bet anyone would prefer him driving left seat. I suspect he was personally involved in the Aircrewman (aluminum snub-nose revolvers for air crews) program, choice for the Model 15 for Air Police, and eventually the Model 56 for air crews, missile crews, etc.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I think you are correct. I read that somewhere, years ago. During my service, one of the range people told me that the general was dismayed with handgun scores by USAF personnel, and thought that the wide target hammer and trigger on the issued M-15 would raise scores. I couldn't tell that it did. What was needed was more training and a better impression of the value of a sidearm on those who carried them.
Actually, the wide trigger made double-action fire harder.
I have to say that few airmen whom I knew were really very interested in handguns. Some were, but we were exceptions. But most managed to qualify at at least the Marksman level.
Besides the Combat Masterpiece, we had a boatload of older .38's, most being Victory Models bummed from the Navy. There were a few Colts, though. Some were commercial Official Police models, the rest the rough-finished Commando model. Investigators carried Cobras with shrouded hammers on the base where I spent most of my tour.
We still had a few .45 autos, and I often chose to carry one. Jeff Cooper had already convinced me of the merits of that gun. Actually, when I was stationed in Newfoundland, we had ONLY .45 autos, and M-2 carbines. They had a treaty that said that when the US abandoned the base, the Canadians got to keep our stuff. So, they never sent M-16's or .38's up there.
My auxiliary AP's, who would have helped us if an attack had come, were so gun naive that most had fired only the carbine, in basic training. In many cases, that had been years before. I found that many of these augmentees could barely recall how to load and fire the weapons! Thankfully, the Cold War never turned hot, and we never had an attack by Spetnaz troops from off a Soviet submarine. I used to be concerned that it might happen. (I was then at a remote radar site on a coastline.)
For what it's worth, I sometimes wore my own Colt Gold Cup .45 on duty in Canada. Then, some officer who went by the regs told the colonel, and I went back to a M-1911A-1, all Colt -made. The colonel wasn't too wigged out over it. Just told me to stop carrying a personal gun, and to use an issued holster instead of the Border Patrol style rig that I had brought from home.
T-Star
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That's certainly a nice picture, and a fine gun...but in the last 30 years of my active duty service (still going), and qualification and carry of the Model 15 for official purposes (aircrew), as well as close association with the Security Police (now Security Forces), I have never seen nor heard of a gun so configured. All that I used, saw, carried (and this was quite a number at a number of locations), were of the standard S&W Model 15 nomenclature - standard hammer and trigger, no "U.S.A.F" markings. It is possible that these were the early issues of this revolver, as those I used were 3 screw models, no diamond grips, pinned barrels. The Air Force has always issued personal sidearms to general officers, which upon retirement, could be purchased. That may explain why some of these early guns surfaced on the used market.
Despite the fact that these revolvers often had some extensive wear, every one I shot was accurate and had a fine action. I even won a leg medal in a military pistol match with one (a long time ago).
These guns were retired from active inventory shortly after Operation Desert Storm, replaced by the M9 (Beretta Model 92) which continues to be the Air Force issue arm.
Despite the fact that these revolvers often had some extensive wear, every one I shot was accurate and had a fine action. I even won a leg medal in a military pistol match with one (a long time ago).
These guns were retired from active inventory shortly after Operation Desert Storm, replaced by the M9 (Beretta Model 92) which continues to be the Air Force issue arm.
MaineProbation
Member
Target Hammer and Target Trigger
Back in the 1960's, it was somewhat of a status symbol to have a wide target hammer and wide target trigger installed on a S&W revolver. Except for off hand and National Match style shooting, they were basically useless. The Model 15 came standard with a semi-target hammer (a little wider than the service hammer) which was just as good as the wide for single action cocking. The half-inch wide trigger was really too wide for the S&W trigger guards and they always made me a little nervous on the range when the guys were re-holstering a loaded weapon. Double action shooting is easier with a standard width trigger, anyway. I suppose LeMay felt that the "goodies" would make a better shooter out of a mediocre shooter. Most of us familiar with shooting know that it's not the goodies, but good shooting skills that make a good shooter.
Back in the 1960's, it was somewhat of a status symbol to have a wide target hammer and wide target trigger installed on a S&W revolver. Except for off hand and National Match style shooting, they were basically useless. The Model 15 came standard with a semi-target hammer (a little wider than the service hammer) which was just as good as the wide for single action cocking. The half-inch wide trigger was really too wide for the S&W trigger guards and they always made me a little nervous on the range when the guys were re-holstering a loaded weapon. Double action shooting is easier with a standard width trigger, anyway. I suppose LeMay felt that the "goodies" would make a better shooter out of a mediocre shooter. Most of us familiar with shooting know that it's not the goodies, but good shooting skills that make a good shooter.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I was an Air Force Security Police officer from 1983 to 1991, getting out at the rank of Captain at Bergstrom AFB outside of Austin, TX. I was issued a variety of Model 15s, and wish I would have paid more attention to their configuration (TT, TH). I know I never got a bad one, and they were all very accurate even with the awful ball ammo we had to carry.
I'm not sure how any got into the civilian marketplace, but I suspect "leakage" from a number of sources. I could have gotten one myself - an RF-4C (aka Texas Lawn Dart) smacked a highway overpass and scattered itself all over the road on approach to the base. The pilots ejected and parachuted to safety in a nearby trailer park. I was on scene trying to keep people from walking off with classified trinkets when a guy walked up to me with one of the crew's Model 15, lost in the violent ejection from the jet. I turned it in, because I'm not a thief, but if I had kept it I'm sure it would have just been written off as lost and never entered into NCIC. It wasn't unheard of for them to come up missing during armory inventories, either, and I highly doubt these guns were entered into NCIC.
I've never heard of the Air Force giving surplus guns to police departments, but I suppose it could have happened.
And, yes, the statute of limitations has most definitely run for theft of government property, but that only applies to prosecuting the thief, not for recovery of stolen property.
So what would I do if I came across a USAF stamped Model 15 in the course of my day-to-day G-man duties? I'd probably fondle it heavily and try to buy it. Uncle Sam has bigger problems than trying to recover an "obsolete" weapon they've gotten rid of anyway.
I'm not sure how any got into the civilian marketplace, but I suspect "leakage" from a number of sources. I could have gotten one myself - an RF-4C (aka Texas Lawn Dart) smacked a highway overpass and scattered itself all over the road on approach to the base. The pilots ejected and parachuted to safety in a nearby trailer park. I was on scene trying to keep people from walking off with classified trinkets when a guy walked up to me with one of the crew's Model 15, lost in the violent ejection from the jet. I turned it in, because I'm not a thief, but if I had kept it I'm sure it would have just been written off as lost and never entered into NCIC. It wasn't unheard of for them to come up missing during armory inventories, either, and I highly doubt these guns were entered into NCIC.
I've never heard of the Air Force giving surplus guns to police departments, but I suppose it could have happened.
And, yes, the statute of limitations has most definitely run for theft of government property, but that only applies to prosecuting the thief, not for recovery of stolen property.
So what would I do if I came across a USAF stamped Model 15 in the course of my day-to-day G-man duties? I'd probably fondle it heavily and try to buy it. Uncle Sam has bigger problems than trying to recover an "obsolete" weapon they've gotten rid of anyway.
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