American Made Mosin Nagant 1891

[David LaPell]

My local gun shop had something unique the other day, I have never been a huge fan of Mosin Nagant rifles, I owned one twenty some odd years ago, and I was not a fan of that one, and most I run into are pretty gritty and rough to say the least.

This one is different, I had seen a couple of American made Mosins over the years, never really got to handle or bother with one. This one, made by Remington in 1917 and has all the numbers matching except the bolt. The action on it is extremely slick, something the early guns are well known for but especially the Remington and Westinghouse guns.

Who knows if this gun ever made it overseas, I'm pretty sure it did, the front sight was changed out to a 1891/30 style, and it has some oddball stamps on it. One source tells me Poland, another said it could have ended up in the Spanish Civil War, but those guns tend to have a different and much rougher stock. Someone engraved a series of numbers on the stock twice, and then on the side of the magazine. With the letter prefix, it can't be someone's military ID #, one number too many at least. it might also be a Czech gun but it has none of the Finnish rework stampings so it's doubtful they got it.

The shop was selling it cheap, the same price as a standard Russian surplus Mosin, they knew it was a Remington, the shop owner didn't care, so I got it for about half the value I am told. The bore is excellent and ammo is plentiful here for them. Can't wait to range test this one.

These are some of the markings I can't seem to get any info on.

On the very front of the trigger guard/floor plate.

This is on the left side of the forearm in the groove, it's about 1/2" tall. I was told that this "h" looking symbol is what the Poles used.

I can't find anything to match this one above the serial number on the barrel.

This one is on the tang under the bolt.

 

[Absalom]

They were produced under contracts for the Czar’s government, by Remington and New England-Westinghouse, but never delivered.

Then, when the US was talked into the supremely futile Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War, the US-made Mosin-Nagant was “officially” adopted by the US Army as the rifle M1917 or something like that. They were the standard issue rifle for the American troops deployed to Northern Russia and Siberia 1918 - 1920.

Afterwards, the story gets murky. Some supposedly ended up in Finland. I believe there is some specialized literature about these that probably has the answers, although I don’t remember author or title.

 

[JayFramer]

The Nagants were interesting back when x54 shells were like $4 for 20.

Nowadays, much more modern (and cheaper to feed) guns can be had. The Nagants are bit clinky and not so accurate. A good Ruger or Browning .308 Win beats them by a mile, and the Enfields Lee and Mouser were much better service rifles during the day.

 

[Kurusu]

Great information. Thank you.

PS. I did not know Alfred E. Neuman went there. Just look at the squatting fellow at the right.

 

[brucev]

FINE looking rifle! Very fine indeed! With a nice bore it will give you good on target results! Would love to know how it came through so many years with no scars, etc. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[shocker]

The Nagants were interesting back when x54 shells were like $4 for 20.

Nowadays, much more modern (and cheaper to feed) guns can be had. The Nagants are bit clinky and not so accurate. A good Ruger or Browning .308 Win beats them by a mile, and the Enfields Lee and Mouser were much better service rifles during the day.
You mean when guns were $99 and 440 ammo cans sold for $89?
We long for the days when direct from Russia surplus was available.

IIRC, my 1975 Hornady manual used a Westinghouse made M-N and the bore was tight enough to use .308 diameter bullets. If I had the OPs gun I'd slug the bore. If it's tight I'd consider handloading as the 54R is an inherently accurate cartridge and component cost is on par with a 308.

 

[schutzen-jager]

some were also used by U.S. for training - I used to own a Remington that came from Raritan Arsenal employee that rifle + bayonet had U.S. stamps -

 

[.38SuperMan]

Many years ago when these hit the surplus market there was a dealer in town that had bought quite a few of these. At the time they were $39 each so I hand picked several including a Remington and a Westinghouse. This was in the day when you could buy a very nice boxed M1 carbine for $79-99. I think it was twelve years ago I sold a large part of my vintage collection and sold the two Mosin-Nagants for many times what I paid.

 

[moosedog]

Great post as always David. I was lucky to pick up a Remington and a Westinghouse several years ago when they were flooding the market.
Your article makes me want to dig them out and shoot them.

Found pix of my Remington

 

[Lee Barner]

got my first one in 63 or 64 or 10 or 11 bucks including a few boxes of shells. it was a Remington and shot great. the surplus store had barrels of these, Mausers and those Italian rifles that were never fired and only dropped once. of course my dad had to buy it as i was 13 or 14 at the time. don't remember when or why i got rid of it. lee

 

[Sgt911]

I bought 6 barrel actions westinghouse and Remington that the barrel had been cut. I had them re-crowned. A GS friend of mine milled and installed original globe front sight post. I bought m38 and m44 stocks and made some nice carbines. I eventually gave them all away as gifts.

 

[Gene L]

Time for some history. The M-Ns were very fine combat rifles. They served for a very long time, longer than any other military bolt rifle. Reliable and tough and accurate enough, and could be made quite accurate. As accurate as any other military rifle of their era. The Finns re-barreled and bedded and did trigger work on them for highly accurate sniper weapons. (The Finn rifles will bring a premium.) I don't know about American ones, but Gunboards forums has a lot on info on M-N from collectors. Because they were dirt cheap at one time doesn't mean they are junk. There are various iterations of them, just like Mauser K98k and some of these are highly sought after by collectors.

They're ugly but what does that matter in a military rifle? Can't make them pretty, like you can a Mauser. They are what they are.

 

[2152hq]

Nice rifle.
The Remington and NewEngland/Westinghouse mfg are about the nicest made.
NewEng/West'ghouse rifles were made at the Stevens Firearms Co plant in Chicopee Falls, MA and some at the Meriden Firearms Co factory in CT.
Both those firearms companys bought up by NewEngland/Westinghouse purely for the production of those M/N rifles. They were never delivered as the Czar was deposed.

Try posting the rifle and pics on Gunboards.com in the 'The Collector's Forum - Mosin Nagant HQ section'.
Lots of interest and knowledge over there on the subject.

 

[LVSteve]

I'm getting some mixed messages off this gun.

First, at some point the barrel shank has been chamfered just above the Eagle motif to allow the rear sight to sit lower. I think I've seen that before, but I cannot recall which country it indicates.

The rear sight is numbered in the original Russian Arshins. That, and the lack of a boxed SA mark on the barrel shank tells me that it has NOT been through Finnish hands.

I wonder if the 91/30 front sight and the barrel shank mod to drop the rear sight are an attempt by a civilian owner to zero the gun at what he/she considers a reasonable range. Remember than many military firearms of this period had rear sights with a minimum range of 300 yards or meters.

The stock has been heavily sanded. That could have happened any time after it left military service.

The extra stamps around the serial number are interesting. There is a Cyrillic "D" added before "No." which I doubt is factory. The multiple strike to the right of "No." looks like a stamp was added that a later owner tried to obliterate. That is typical of weapons used in the various Balkan wars.

The Cyrillic "Ch" character on the stock is upside-down in the picture, so that's why it looks like an "h". Not sure why that should be Polish as they don't use the Cyrillic alphabet.

 

[Steve912]

Nowadays, much more modern (and cheaper to feed) guns can be had. The Nagants are bit clinky and not so accurate. A good Ruger or Browning .308 Win beats them by a mile, and the Enfields Lee and Mouser were much better service rifles during the day.

Don't assume everything you read on the web is correct.

There's plenty of accurate Mosin's out there, and the Mosin
action can be polished up, a lot slicker than the Carcano.

 

[2152hq]

In the pic of the very front end of the trigger guard/floor plate , that
# 87 or 81 is overstamp on top of an Izhevsk (Russian Arsenal) Bow and Arrow makers mark.
That style of mark from Izzyland is pre 1928, not that it makes that much difference I guess.
You can barely see the arrow feathers and curved ends of the bow that make up the orig stamped marking.

That Square box above the ser#..it's about the right size for a Finnish Property marking (SA in a box) but I can't see what was inside the box as it's been obliterated with several punch marks,

That Cyrillic letter 'D' (I had no idea it was a 'D' !)..
Again the Finns marked some of their captured and converted M/N rifles with a Capital D on the bbl shank at the receiver to note that the chamber was made to the spec of their very slightly larger (longer shoulder I believe) 7.62x54.

I think the Finn mfg & loaded cartridge was designated D166 cartridge or something close to that.
The rifles would still fire the Russian issue ammo as well.

Problem with my 'D' designation theory and it's a big one,,is that the Finns did the conversions and stamped the chambers with an english alphabet letter D,,not a Cyrillic letter.
So if you can somehow wind the story around as to why a Finnish guy used a cyrillic letter designation when the rest of the country's armorers didn't..case solved..

Nice rifle whatever the markings . I'll bet it's plenty accurate.
I've always second guessed selling by SAKO and VKT M39 Finnish M/N's
Very accurate and they're not $69.00 anymore either!
Still got ammo for the next one that comes by.

 

[Gene L]

The rear sight, in arshins, would seem to rule out any ownership other than Russia. And the Finns over stamped the rear sight graduations in meters. They would have no use for arshins. I'd also suggest gunboards.com where are many experts who will know all.

 

[marinevet]

I can remember back in "the" day when you could go to a big town gun store and these were sold in a barrel.......pick the one you want...........sometimes around $50-$60......

 

[Welder1]

Neat post. I picked up a NE Westinghouse awhile back to fill the Mosin spot in my collection. They were made a few miles from me. Still would like a Remington to go with it but haven’t found the right one. It will pop up eventually.

 

[Gene L]

Ah! Last night, I saw an episodes on Forgotten Weapons about American built Mosins. Vert interesting. Apparently most did make it overseas, Russia got a lot of them, Finland got a bunch during their war of Independence in 1918, bought a lot more. Most but not all had converted sights. The US Govt bought some and marked with the flaming bomb. Just to save the maker's bacon. Bannerman got a lot of them and sporterized a lot and re-chambered some to 30-06.

Said most of the American Mosins seen here had come back from Finland. An interesting program.