Antique Otis Smith .32 S&W revolver

[rlee1976]

Hi. I know that Otis Smith was no relation to Horace Smith of Smith and Wesson, but I figure someone here can help me with general questions about firing an antique gun. I am purchasing a Spencer Safety Hammerless .32 S&W 5 shot revolver designed by Otis Smith and distributed by Maltby and Henley. It was made in the 1890's. I should have it in about a week and a half. It's a very unique gun and the only American-made revolver to ever incorporate a manual safety. It is a steel frame gun in very good condition. All buttons and switches work properly, nickel finish very good, no rust. The cylinder walls are nice and thick compared to other antique pocket revolvers I've seen. If timing and lockup look good, do you think it is safe to fire with, say, modern Magtech .32 S&W 85 grain bullets? I heard even modern .32 S&W ammo is not made to be extremely powerful precisely because people like to shoot it in old guns. Was the quality of steel pretty good by the 1890's? Are there signs to look for, regarding the metal being brittle or anything like that, or is that something that a gunsmith would have to check for me? Could a qualified gunsmith even check for something like that? Lastly, is it better to use the lighter 85 grain bullet in an antique, than an 88 grain bullet; I mean is a heavier bullet going to exert more force in the gun and be more dangerous/ likely to cause some kind of rupture or catastrophic failure? Sorry for all the questions, but any imput will help. Thanks, folks.

 

[opoefc]

It is a complicated gun, made to shoot black powder only. Use of any other ammo. is taking a risk of putting the gun in a non-working status permanently. Metal as old as that gun is can always let go under even moderate pressures, and won't give you any warning. Interior parts can be brittle and break, especially if they haven't been cycled in the last 100+ yrs, and there are no replacemnet parts anywhere. Ed #15

 

[mel023]

The old .32 S&W round in black powder is about as obsolete as you can get. I'm not sure if any of my black powder ammo sources even still make it but I'll check for you. In the mean time, if you're really desparate to shoot it, try to find some current production .32 S&W, pull the bullet and reload the cases with black powder. I have no idea what charge you should use but perhaps there is a black powder reloading manual on the matket somewhere. Just as a point of future comparison, my Speer reloading manual shows 2grains +or- for any of a half dozen powders for the .32 Long when using a 90 grain lead round nose and around 3 grains of the same powders for a 98 grain lead round nose. Since the .32 S&W is shorter than the .32 Long you can see that any load, black powder or smokeless, is going to be pretty light. And in that same regard it would probaly be best to avoid anything larger than a 90 grain bullet.

 

[mel023]

At the risk of being accused of plagiarism here is a recipe posted by hmont on this forum for a .32 S&W black powder load.

"4.5 g by weight of Groex FFFg with a 76 gr Hunter supply .313 cast bullet on top . When seated to an overall length of .830 there is powder compression of almost 1/8th of an inch.The bullet comes already lubed and I have not been sizing them."

 

[rlee1976]

quote "It is a complicated gun, made to shoot black powder only."

opoefc, are you familiar with this gun personally? What can you tell me about it? What do you guys think the odds of an old antique box of blackpowder .32's being fireable are? I often see boxes of this ammo probably dating back a hundred years up for auction or sale and not all that expensive. I have heard, though that (assuming they even fire) black powder tends to increase in strength as it ages and can be too powerful; any truth to that? Or how about old Remington smokeless in the "dogbone" boxes or Western "lubaloy" smokeless rounds? The same pressures as brand new smokeless .32's? Thanks.

 

[twaits]

Check this article:

Spencer, Safety, Hammerless, Maltry and Henley, .32, revolver, catch, latch, 1880s,American

Looks like some good info on these.

Also check this one out on Auction Arms:

Guns For Sale : Antiques - Maltby, Henley & Co Spencer Safety Hammerless .32 - Auction: 9505487 (Ended 01/01/2010, 18:04:49 PST)

Whats interesting about this one is it says it has a brass frame and barrel!
That one would definitely be a no no with smokeless.

 

[flagman1776]

I am not familiar with this piece. However as a re-enactor I shoot muzzle loading black powder guns often. I have never heard of black powder changing potency as it ages. However, black powder can remain viable for 100's of years. Less so recently only because most antique guns have now been found & their charges removed... A lot of muzzleloaders were originally found to be fully charged, sometimes with thunderous results!
Black powder is graded by granulation which roughly regulates the burning speed of a given charge. If a charge is wet... as it is during the manufacturing process... it can change granulation and still be potent when it is again dried.

There is really no way to non-destructively test the steel strength of this antique. In my opinion I would not shoot an antique with it's previous full service charge. In this case, it would require hand loading a reduced charge. Coming up with components could be by breaking down cartridges, replacing the powder & reassembling or finding the components & building from scratch. I would definately disgard what ever powder comes from any cases. "black powder", obsolete "semi-smokeless", "smokeless" are all grey to black color. Way too many fine guns have been destroyed by the use of incorrect propellant... not to mention the risk to life & limb.

Best wishes,
Russ

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
My experence with old revolvers-
In the late 1960s I purchased a hammerless breaktop .38 S&W five shot revolver. Nickeled Plated in 90% condition. Taking it to the range with factory ammo I fired it one time, two times, three shots, and then I couldn't pick up my front sight to fire the fourth shot. I then observed that the top strap, part of the cylinder,and barrel were missing. I was able to find one small piece of nickeled metal only. Negative injury to myself (thank you God).
I am now very wary of "Metal Fatigue".
Jimmy

 

[deadin]

One final caveat.... If you decide to use a "reduced" charge of black powder, be sure to fill the case the rest of the way with a filler such as corn meal, kapok or cotton. Black powder and empty space in a case can give you a substantial pressure spike.

 

[twaits]

Hi:
My experence with old revolvers-
In the late 1960s I purchased a hammerless breaktop .38 S&W five shot revolver. Nickeled Plated in 90% condition. Taking it to the range with factory ammo I fired it one time, two times, three shots, and then I couldn't pick up my front sight to fire the fourth shot. I then observed that the top strap, part of the cylinder,and barrel were missing. I was able to find one small piece of nickeled metal only. Negative injury to myself (thank you God).
I am now very wary of "Metal Fatigue".
Jimmy

You didn't have that cylinder stuffed full of 9mms did you?

 

[rlee1976]

twaits,
Most of them were brass, but the last run was made of steel. Okay fellas, if antique guns' metal might be weakened by age, as per that scary break-top .38 story, how old does even a modern gun have to be before it becomes dangerous? I have a Victory model made in 1942 on layaway right now; how long before I have to start worrying about shooting it with factory loads. Is there a difference between shooting an old semi-auto like a 1911 and an old revolver of the same age? Would there be more dangerous factors involved in shooting a revolver from 1915, say, then a semi-auto from 1915?

 

[H Richard]

Handgun metals were begun to be Heat Treated in the late teens and mid twenties. Most any (S&W) after 1925 should be reliable with factory "standard velocity" ammo, if the gun is in good condition. Prior to heat treat, it is advisable to use low powered loads. Improvements in metallurgy in the 30's, 40's, and 50's make those guns safe with most any factory ammo. The .357 magnum was developed in the 30's.

 

[deadin]

It all boils down to if you absolutely have to fire every gun you own, don't buy antiques or be a purest and shoot them with what they were designed for. (Realize that some will fail even with "original" loadings.)
If you wouldn't shoot +P's in a fine M&P Target Model or Victory model, so why would you want to shoot a gun designed for black powder with a smokeless load?
I've seen one Damascus barreled 12 gauge shot successfully with modern high-base duck loads. I've also seen them unwrap with a mild trap load. (You pays your dime and you takes your chances.)
Give the old designers a little credit for having a little sense in their designs.

 

[Gazz]

I do not believe it was the only US made revolver made equipped with a safety. I just sold and antique Forehand Arms revolver that had a small knurled slider just behind where the hammer would normally be (this was a "hammerless" revolver and what looked like the hammer was actually the release catch for to open the revolver for loading or emptying) and if it was pushed forward, it would prevent the trigger from being pulled. Neat revolver. The completed auction is here;

Guns For Sale : Antiques - Forehand DA HAMMERLESS REvolver .38S&W cal - Auction: 9562103 (Ended 02/09/2010, 18:29:00 PST)

If you want to take a look.

 

[flagman1776]

Yes, deadin has an important point! It is true that there must be no air space in the cartridge. When muzzleloading, the ball must be firmly seated on the black powder charge... otherwise it acts as an obstructed bore.

Good catch, thanks again,
Russ

 

[opoefc]

rlee1976, Yes, I have had several of these guns over the years. The "safety" mechanism is an additional assembly of small parts, operated by an "On-Off" button on the side of the frame. It's sensitve to interior crude & fouling, so don't depend on it to be Off, just because the button is in that position. I assumed you knew these guns are brass frame & barrel, which makes them a unique collectable, Cylinders are steel, but not heat treated. You will find the same gun with either Spencer markings or Maltby Henly markings. It's not the quality of a S&W .32 Safety, which I sometimes shoot if in good mechanical condition, but I would never try to shoot a Spencer, even with a black powder equivalent load. Just my opinion. Ed #15

 

[mel023]

Rather than increasing in potency as it ages, I believe black powder has a tendency to degrade if not stored properly. This is what happened to the member of the Gunpowder Plot who tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament back in the 17th century. They had to use so much of the stuff that it quite a long time for them to collect it all so they didn't raise suspicion. As they were able to acquire any powder, they took it down the to cellars under Westminster. By the time they felt they had enough powder for the job the first batch had started to decay. When they tried to light it, instead of going BOOM it went more of a FSSSSST instead. Needless to say they were caught, interrogated (no issues of enhanced methods back then, they were stretched on the rack several times) and ultimately executed. I'm presuming the manufacturing methods for black powder have improved since the 17th century but the point is black powder does decay over time. I would be very hesitant to shoot 100 year old cartridges because even if they do go bang you don't know for sure if the ignition generated enough pressure to actually push the bullet out of the barrel unless you check it after each shot. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[rlee1976]

me1023, Could be that, in that case, the powder was just damp from being in the cellar. A guy who really should know his stuff told me that it's exposure to air somehow that makes it increase in potency. He works at Stars and Stripes (? I think that was the name of the outfit); they specialize in making obsolete cartridges and selling them for outrageous prices. At the time, I was talking to him about getting some .38 short rimfire made up (he said no does rimfire, the best he could do was what he called "quasi-rimfire", a centerfire cartridge with the primer set off-center); the cost was $250 per box! I said what if I find an old box with that grease-wax coating on the rounds, would that have kept the powder from exposure to air over the years? He said, no, there is still air inside the cartridge itself.

 

[mel023]

I don't want to start an argument or anything. I could accept that for a time BP might have some gains in potency as it ages but I don't think that's open ended. Sooner or later there's going to be a point of diminishing returns. As it is these old cartridges are considered unsafe to shoot by people who seem to know what they're talking about. And it isn't because they've got a bigger boom than when they were first produced, it's because you really don't what they're going to do.

 

[vinnyragu]

32 rimfire

I have one of these Otis smith handguns. About to put on internet and sell it. It is a .32 Rimfire not a center fire. Are you sure your gun is a centerfire or a rimfire... I also have a couple of .32 Rimfire ammo boxes i will be selling.