Apex Barrel in 2.0?

[NewToGuns17]

Hey guys. Do you think the apex semi drop-in barrel would be beneficial in the 2.0? I don't fully understand how they achieve a longer dwell time, but i also don't know if the 2.0 would benefit/function the same as the 1.0 with the upgrade. i see it's compatible but still, unknown to me whether it's beneficial or not.

 

[Shield9mm]

Unless you are into competition I don't see the need of a match grade barrel. I practice for self defense never had any accuracy issues with any of my M&P's.

 

[Motorsporting]

Somebody with more info should chime in, but the 2.0 barrels are different than the 1.0s. I think S&W worked on the accuracy concerns. I know I feel I shoot my 2.0s better, but there could be many reasons besides the barrel that make me think that.

 

[Samsn1]

Apex Grade Barrels: The Inside Story - YouTube

 

[NewToGuns17]

Apex Grade Barrels: The Inside Story - YouTube

I watched this but it was put out during the 1.0 era

 

[Samsn1]

I watched this but it was put out during the 1.0 era

Sure is was 2 years ago but the concept remains the same. Also there’s a lengthy multi page post in this forum where Randy himself has a discussion on the subject of the barrels and the 2.0.

 

[NewToGuns17]

Sure is was 2 years ago but the concept remains the same. Also there’s a lengthy multi page post in this forum where Randy himself has a discussion on the subject of the barrels and the 2.0.

If it's not too much, would you be able to link it up please?

 

[Smakmauz]

Very long story, short, is that you won't see AS noticeable improvement with the 2.0 as with the 1.0 but it is still going to be an improvement. Dwell time was not the ONLY thing that was improved.

weather its worth it to you is subjective but if you want custom 1911 type accuracy out of a polymer gun, the apex is the way to go. just remember that the tighter the tolerances, the better the chance for failures if you use cheap ammo. these guns are made with looser tolerances on purpose to be a fighting gun so reliability is priority over accuracy.

 

[Randy Lee]

If I might add my thought on the topic, shoot the gun first. Typically, the M2.0 will shoot around 2" at 25 yards with the right ammo off the bench. IF you find that you can shoot better groups off the bench with other guns, then perhaps you might benefit from a fitted barrel, regardless of whether it is ours, Bar-Sto or any other manufacturer.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of shooting tiny groups we look for an immediate technological patch to fix our woes. I find that it is a small percentage of shooters who can outshoot their stock guns. That being said, when your gun won't put 5 shots on an 18"x 24" target at 50 yards off a bench (like my 1.0) and you can regularly shoot 1"-2" with a custom 1911 or Sig then we can rule out the human element as the culprit for inaccuracy.

My friend Bruce Gray wrote a brilliant piece on accuracy called "Zen and the Art of Hitting Stuff". I really encourage anyone in your position to read it.

Zen and the art of hitting stuff - Grayguns

-Randy

 

[NewToGuns17]

If I might add my thought on the topic, shoot the gun first. Typically, the M2.0 will shoot around 2" at 25 yards with the right ammo off the bench. IF you find that you can shoot better groups off the bench with other guns, then perhaps you might benefit from a fitted barrel, regardless of whether it is ours, Bar-Sto or any other manufacturer.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of shooting tiny groups we look for an immediate technological patch to fix our woes. I find that it is a small percentage of shooters who can outshoot their stock guns. That being said, when your gun won't put 5 shots on an 18"x 24" target at 50 yards off a bench (like my 1.0) and you can regularly shoot 1"-2" with a custom 1911 or Sig then we can rule out the human element as the culprit for inaccuracy.

My friend Bruce Gray wrote a brilliant piece on accuracy called "Zen and the Art of Hitting Stuff". I really encourage anyone in your position to read it.

Zen and the art of hitting stuff - Grayguns

-Randy

Thanks Randy. I am far from a competition shooter but I do shoot fairly well. Are these barrels strictly for competition and not necessarily for SD? I come from a background in air rifles and as such I am obsessed with accuracy for some reason lol. I installed the aluminum trigger kit for the 2.0 and I guess you could say I like tinkering with my tools. I enjoy accuracy but I think reliability is more important. Maybe I'm just obsessing over having the "perfect" pistol/uogrades.

 

[Randy Lee]

Thanks Randy. I am far from a competition shooter but I do shoot fairly well. Are these barrels strictly for competition and not necessarily for SD? I come from a background in air rifles and as such I am obsessed with accuracy for some reason lol. I installed the aluminum trigger kit for the 2.0 and I guess you could say I like tinkering with my tools. I enjoy accuracy but I think reliability is more important. Maybe I'm just obsessing over having the "perfect" pistol/uogrades.

The magic of the barrel is really in the lock up geometry, so our barrels can be fit for the intended application. As always, I recommend that anyone using our barrel for SD/LE application proof the gun with their particular ammo selection until they are confident with its reliability.

There are more than a few LE officers who are using our barrels, and I know of one instance where an officer used it to preserve life and did so with all 10 fired rounds retained in the suspect.

 

[NewToGuns17]

The magic of the barrel is really in the lock up geometry, so our barrels can be fit for the intended application. As always, I recommend that anyone using our barrel for SD/LE application proof the gun with their particular ammo selection until they are confident with its reliability.

There are more than a few LE officers who are using our barrels, and I know of one instance where an officer used it to preserve life and did so with all 10 fired rounds retained in the suspect.

How does ammunition change how a barrel performs? If the barrel is fit to the slide shouldn't it perform the same throughout? I understand more wiggle room has less chance of being stuck, but I thought that was a tolerance issue with hanging up if it were too tight. Sorry for stupid questions! You explain very well so at least I'm learning fast!

 

[Randy Lee]

How does ammunition change how a barrel performs? If the barrel is fit to the slide shouldn't it perform the same throughout? I understand more wiggle room has less chance of being stuck, but I thought that was a tolerance issue with hanging up if it were too tight. Sorry for stupid questions! You explain very well so at least I'm learning fast!

With our barrel, ammunition really only causes a change in point of impact (assuming the ammunition is of good quality and uses a quality bullet).

In my experience, the only way to get consistent accuracy is to have the barrel fit to the slide AND frame. For debris tolerance, the hood of the barrel should be fit so that there is no fore and aft movement of the barrel. If the hood length is too long, the gun will hang up as the barrel heats up.

The more critical aspect is how the barrel's bottom lug contacts the locking block. The factory barrel makes little to no contact with the horizontal surface of the locking block. I will always prefer that my barrel (whether it be Smith, Sig,Glock or 1911) have mechanically based vertical support that contributes to dwell time. The M&P factory barrel is designed with abuse in mind and not extreme accuracy. I believe I can have both because I do not live on the battlefield. I have the luxury of keeping my carry firearm clean and lubed. I rely on my carry pistol to be more accurate than I am on any given day at any given distance, even out beyond 25 yards.

 

[NewToGuns17]

With our barrel, ammunition really only causes a change in point of impact (assuming the ammunition is of good quality and uses a quality bullet).

In my experience, the only way to get consistent accuracy is to have the barrel fit to the slide AND frame. For debris tolerance, the hood of the barrel should be fit so that there is no fore and aft movement of the barrel. If the hood length is too long, the gun will hang up as the barrel heats up.

The more critical aspect is how the barrel's bottom lug contacts the locking block. The factory barrel makes little to no contact with the horizontal surface of the locking block. I will always prefer that my barrel (whether it be Smith, Sig,Glock or 1911) have mechanically based vertical support that contributes to dwell time. The M&P factory barrel is designed with abuse in mind and not extreme accuracy. I believe I can have both because I do not live on the battlefield. I have the luxury of keeping my carry firearm clean and lubed. I rely on my carry pistol to be more accurate than I am on any given day at any given distance, even out beyond 25 yards.

Well spoken, I may try my hand at fitting your barrel once I purchase it.

 

[JTPro]

If I might add my thought on the topic, shoot the gun first. Typically, the M2.0 will shoot around 2" at 25 yards with the right ammo off the bench. IF you find that you can shoot better groups off the bench with other guns, then perhaps you might benefit from a fitted barrel, regardless of whether it is ours, Bar-Sto or any other manufacturer.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of shooting tiny groups we look for an immediate technological patch to fix our woes. I find that it is a small percentage of shooters who can outshoot their stock guns. That being said, when your gun won't put 5 shots on an 18"x 24" target at 50 yards off a bench (like my 1.0) and you caregularly shoot 1"-2" with a custom 1911 or Sig then we can rule out the human element as the culprit for inaccuracy.

My friend Bruce Gray wrote a brilliant piece on accuracy called "Zen and the Art of Hitting Stuff". I really encourage anyone in your position to read it.

Zen and the art of hitting stuff - Grayguns

-Randy

Randy, I just purchased an Apex 5" barrel for the M&P Pro in 9mm, I have watched your video several times and feel I can successfully install the barrel. Can you give me any other tips or advice that you have come up with since making the video? The pistol is the 1st gen 5'' pro. The barrel is coming from Brownells, I ordered the gunsmith first and contacted your shop and to install it, but Jenna said you do not install any longer, Brownells was good enough to change the order to a semi drop in. Thanks in advance for any help.
PS. your Apex triggers are awesome.

 

[Randy Lee]

Randy, I just purchased an Apex 5" barrel for the M&P Pro in 9mm, I have watched your video several times and feel I can successfully install the barrel. Can you give me any other tips or advice that you have come up with since making the video? The pistol is the 1st gen 5'' pro. The barrel is coming from Brownells, I ordered the gunsmith first and contacted your shop and to install it, but Jenna said you do not install any longer, Brownells was good enough to change the order to a semi drop in. Thanks in advance for any help.
PS. your Apex triggers are awesome.

Absolutely!

One of the most important things that has come up is some of the dimensional variation we see in the slide at the muzzle end. Because there are two separate machining operations to make the barrel bore and the barrel removal cut, sometimes the contact surfaces at the top and bottom of our barrel (at the muzzle end) can have excessive pinching or pre-tension. What this means is that the barrel will flex and act like a tuning fork when the gun is in battery. This is also known as barrel springing.

Once you have the barrel adjusted so that it will drop into the slide and have fit the hood length, use a blue sharpie to coat the top of our barrel at the muzzle end. Place the barrel back into the slide and allow the chamber end to drop into its battery position while holding the slide upside down.

If you press down on the bottom lug (fitting pad on the semi drop-in) with your thumb, and you feel the barrel spring back up as you release thumb pressure, then material will need to be removed from the top surface (area between 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock) of the muzzle end. The barrel should drop into position with a metallic sounding "thud". That indicates that the top locking surface that mates with the slide at the forward end of the ejection port is at full vertical limit as it should be.

A springing barrel will give you a false sense of lock up when you work to fit the bottom pad and assemble the gun. It will feel very solid, but you will find that the accuracy is not optimal. This is because as the barrel and slide heat up, it increases stress on the barrel. In a crude analogy, think of a piece of music wire that you flex in your hand going from straight wire into the shape of a bow. The result is usually vertical stringing.

Remove material off the top area until you do not see evidence of springing
In an ideal barrel to slide fit, when you use thumb pressure on the fitting pad to hold the barrel in vertical lock up, you should feel no movement if you try to wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel. As soon as you release thumb pressure, the muzzle should have some "wiggle".

Sorry for the long winded description, but eliminating springing (if present) before you work on the fitting pad will save hours of frustration or disappointment on the range.

 

[Christopher67]

Sure is was 2 years ago but the concept remains the same. Also there’s a lengthy multi page post in this forum where Randy himself has a discussion on the subject of the barrels and the 2.0.

This thread?


http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/531915-m-p-m2-0-accuracy-issues-do-dwell-time.html#post139715260

 

[Christopher67]

Absolutely!

One of the most important things that has come up is some of the dimensional variation we see in the slide at the muzzle end. Because there are two separate machining operations to make the barrel bore and the barrel removal cut, sometimes the contact surfaces at the top and bottom of our barrel (at the muzzle end) can have excessive pinching or pre-tension. What this means is that the barrel will flex and act like a tuning fork when the gun is in battery. This is also known as barrel springing.

Once you have the barrel adjusted so that it will drop into the slide and have fit the hood length, use a blue sharpie to coat the top of our barrel at the muzzle end. Place the barrel back into the slide and allow the chamber end to drop into its battery position while holding the slide upside down.

If you press down on the bottom lug (fitting pad on the semi drop-in) with your thumb, and you feel the barrel spring back up as you release thumb pressure, then material will need to be removed from the top surface (area between 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock) of the muzzle end. The barrel should drop into position with a metallic sounding "thud". That indicates that the top locking surface that mates with the slide at the forward end of the ejection port is at full vertical limit as it should be.

A springing barrel will give you a false sense of lock up when you work to fit the bottom pad and assemble the gun. It will feel very solid, but you will find that the accuracy is not optimal. This is because as the barrel and slide heat up, it increases stress on the barrel. In a crude analogy, think of a piece of music wire that you flex in your hand going from straight wire into the shape of a bow. The result is usually vertical stringing.

Remove material off the top area until you do not see evidence of springing
In an ideal barrel to slide fit, when you use thumb pressure on the fitting pad to hold the barrel in vertical lock up, you should feel no movement if you try to wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel. As soon as you release thumb pressure, the muzzle should have some "wiggle".

Sorry for the long winded description, but eliminating springing (if present) before you work on the fitting pad will save hours of frustration or disappointment on the range.

Ok i read this whole post you made, are you guys taking on work? I would rather you install the barrel for me, im afraid i would sand/file to much off lol. Thanks Randy!

 

[catcus-jack]

Spend your money on more practice ammo.More than likely the factory bbl is more accurate than you.I have put over a thousand rounds through my 2.0 Compact with absolutely no accuracy issues.

 

[Smakmauz]

Absolutely!

One of the most important things that has come up is some of the dimensional variation we see in the slide at the muzzle end. Because there are two separate machining operations to make the barrel bore and the barrel removal cut, sometimes the contact surfaces at the top and bottom of our barrel (at the muzzle end) can have excessive pinching or pre-tension. What this means is that the barrel will flex and act like a tuning fork when the gun is in battery. This is also known as barrel springing.

Once you have the barrel adjusted so that it will drop into the slide and have fit the hood length, use a blue sharpie to coat the top of our barrel at the muzzle end. Place the barrel back into the slide and allow the chamber end to drop into its battery position while holding the slide upside down.

If you press down on the bottom lug (fitting pad on the semi drop-in) with your thumb, and you feel the barrel spring back up as you release thumb pressure, then material will need to be removed from the top surface (area between 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock) of the muzzle end. The barrel should drop into position with a metallic sounding "thud". That indicates that the top locking surface that mates with the slide at the forward end of the ejection port is at full vertical limit as it should be.

A springing barrel will give you a false sense of lock up when you work to fit the bottom pad and assemble the gun. It will feel very solid, but you will find that the accuracy is not optimal. This is because as the barrel and slide heat up, it increases stress on the barrel. In a crude analogy, think of a piece of music wire that you flex in your hand going from straight wire into the shape of a bow. The result is usually vertical stringing.

Remove material off the top area until you do not see evidence of springing
In an ideal barrel to slide fit, when you use thumb pressure on the fitting pad to hold the barrel in vertical lock up, you should feel no movement if you try to wiggle the muzzle end of the barrel. As soon as you release thumb pressure, the muzzle should have some "wiggle".

Sorry for the long winded description, but eliminating springing (if present) before you work on the fitting pad will save hours of frustration or disappointment on the range.

can I "like" this post 100,000 times? Thanks again Randy for taking the time to share your knowledge... its pretty rare these days. I am for sure going to picking up some barrels and one of those fitting jigs you came out with so I can do the gunsmith fit type for a couple of my guns.