Are we making any progress on FTF's?

[vitamind3]

Ok, so I know Im not alone on this, but I continue to get a FTF rate of about 4-5%. I wanted to make a thread devoted to troubleshooting and (hopefully) fixing this issue.

For me, the problem is inconsistent. sometimes, Ill shoot an entire mag w/o a hitch, sometimes two mags. other times, ill have 3-4 FTF's in one mag. for some background, sometimes the chamber is clean, sometimes its not. it doesnt seem to matter really. i feed the mag the same way every time.
Ive tried federal 550 bulk, winchester 500 bulk, CCI stingers, and minimags. both bulk packs seem to do it more than the CCI's, but i think that may just be a quantity thing, as ive only shot 50 or so minimags and stingers, so i cant really judge just yet. however, both CCIs seem to perform pretty well.

when i get the FTF, its always the same thing. almost like a stove-pipe, but obviously the round is unspent. everytime the round is facing upward, lead pointing to the sky.

for you guys that are experiencing FTFs, are they the same fashion? has anyone made any progress on this? im hoping we can resolve this, because FTFs on a $450 rifle are unacceptable.

 

[CORPORAL PUNISHMENT]

That was the exact problem I was having ( inconsistent ftf's ) I sent mine back to Smith. After the holidays, I am going to take it out and post the results. I agree that this rifle should be perfect. I started a thread a while ago about this same thing. There were a couple guys w/ some good ideas But I would say nothing solid. I did take my magazines apart and their were a couple areas I think could be smoothed out w/ a dremel. I just don't have one and never used one You did load your rounds one at a time and then check the back of the mags to see if they stacked right? The other thing I've been reading is range reports where the mags were loaded to just 24 and the results were positive. If you wanted to see that thread just go to my tag and look it up. There were some good ideas.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

1. Yes, the round is facing up and stuck in the mag.

2. Yes, does not matter if clean or dirty.

3. Yes, it is inconsistent. I can go a couple hundred rounds with no instances, then one or two in the next mag or two.

4. My rate is less than yours at about 1%-- 5 or 6 out of a 550 box.

From my observations--

A. It has nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded.

B. It happens when shooting off hand with no pressure on the mag, as well as from the bench with a bag pushed against the mag. .

C. I've put around 10k rounds through it. Most all have been Fed Value Pack. I haven't noticed much difference from day one. Maybe I used to get a couple more when it was newer.... but if it has improved it hasn't improved much.

I used a Dremmel with a polishing bit where there were wear marks on the mag lips (dirty mag) but it made no difference. I think Skip tried using some tape to take up some slack in the length of the mag but I don't think it yielded much results either.

On a side note - I have never had ejection issues. The only problems anyone has had is the guy standing 6-8 feet to my right.

 

[vitamind3]

1. Yes, the round is facing up and stuck in the mag.

2. Yes, does not matter if clean or dirty.

3. Yes, it is inconsistent. I can go a couple hundred rounds with no instances, then one or two in the next mag or two.

4. My rate is less than yours at about 1%-- 5 or 6 out of a 550 box.

From my observations--

A. It has nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded.

B. It happens when shooting off hand with no pressure on the mag, as well as from the bench with a bag pushed against the mag. .

C. I've put around 10k rounds through it. Most all have been Fed Value Pack. I haven't noticed much difference from day one. Maybe I used to get a couple more when it was newer.... but if it has improved it hasn't improved much.

I used a Dremmel with a polishing bit where there were wear marks on the mag lips (dirty mag) but it made no difference. I think Skip tried using some tape to take up some slack in the length of the mag but I don't think it yielded much results either.

On a side note - I have never had ejection issues. The only problems anyone has had is the guy standing 6-8 feet to my right.

great... It sounds identical to the issues im having.

I guess in all reality, it doesnt matter. if youre using this rifle to hunt, you should have saved about $300 and got a basic 10/22 or the equivalent. if youre using it for home defense, youre a fool. anything else is just plinking, and while its not critical if it jams/fails to feed/eject, it IS annoying, and a $450 rifle should NOT do that! (obviously the aforementioned examples COULD be done with this weapon, but not with its reliability track record)

im not too far from smith.. ill give them a call once they open back up, and maybe talk to someone about our options here.

 

[skip62]

1. Yes, the round is facing up and stuck in the mag.

2. Yes, does not matter if clean or dirty.

3. Yes, it is inconsistent. I can go a couple hundred rounds with no instances, then one or two in the next mag or two.

4. My rate is less than yours at about 1%-- 5 or 6 out of a 550 box.

From my observations--

A. It has nothing to do with how the rounds are loaded.

B. It happens when shooting off hand with no pressure on the mag, as well as from the bench with a bag pushed against the mag. .

C. I've put around 10k rounds through it. Most all have been Fed Value Pack. I haven't noticed much difference from day one. Maybe I used to get a couple more when it was newer.... but if it has improved it hasn't improved much.

I used a Dremmel with a polishing bit where there were wear marks on the mag lips (dirty mag) but it made no difference. I think Skip tried using some tape to take up some slack in the length of the mag but I don't think it yielded much results either.

On a side note - I have never had ejection issues. The only problems anyone has had is the guy standing 6-8 feet to my right.

Everything Phil says has been true about mine. Problem is the last time I got to take it out, I only had 1 FTF in 500 rounds with 2 kinds of ammo. The Fed walmart was the 1. Winchester Xpert really worked good.

Some thing I noticed, but not till after I left the range and had a chance to think about it(yes, i'm slow), was the gun acts differently if you don't have it tight against your shoulder. I haven't had a chance to go back out and test my theory, but I'm a pistol shooter, so I don't hold tight to my shoulder. It could give the gun a limp wrist effect. Try it and see.

The tape worked 100% with the Walmart's Federal bulk. I just didn't like it as a solution, and with different ammo, it might have a different effect.

 

[perpster]

Not having a 10/22, my experience with other .22LR semi-auto long guns and handguns is that misfeeds are not uncommon. Am I mistaken?

 

[rbert0005]

When I load the mags properly I have no issues.

I have noticed that in the mag there is a little guide or rail, if you will.
When I load the mag with the rims of all the rounds BEHIND the rail there are NO FTFs. When I get sloppy and allow the rim of a round to get in front of that little rail, Bingo a FTF. It sure is a bitch to get that round out of the mag after that.

Bob

 

[27 Beck]

Not having a 10/22, my experience with other .22LR semi-auto long guns and handguns is that misfeeds are not uncommon. Am I mistaken?

I have other brands of long and hand guns. FTF and FTEs are not uncommon.

Reading other shooting forums, it happens to those posters as well.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

It sure is a bitch to get that round out of the mag after that.

Bob

Hello Bob

After some struggling with it, I learned to just mash down and forward on the bullet and lever the round out against the front part of the mag lip. I'm very well practiced at it Seemed kinda crude (near brutal) the first time I did it. I thought I might separate the bullet from the brass but that has never happened, yet. Trying to be easy with the round and mag just didn't work. I keep waiting for a crack along the seam of the mag but so far the two mags I have are proving to be pretty tough.

Sometimes the most difficult part is not getting the round out of the mag, but rather getting the mag out of the receiver. The round jams so hard into the mag lips that it wedges the mag into the receiver requiring a pretty healthy yank to get it out.

Perhaps S&W might consider including the above operating techinques in their next publication of the 15-22 Safety and Instruction Manual.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I guess in all reality, it doesnt matter.

That pretty much reflects my attitude.

Others are correct when saying the .22LR has inherent issues that many firearms suffer, but I've never had this type mag-snag issue before. And I could pretty much narrow down whatever the issue was-- A certain type of ammo, how long it could go between cleanings, a particular mag, grip or whatever..... But my 15-22 mag-snag seems to have no resolve that I can find. My hunch is that when I get a hold of a 10rd magazine there will be no mag-snags. But that means there will be a 'snag' in operation every 10 rounds. That's much worse than what I got now!

 

[skip62]

When I load the mags properly I have no issues.

I have noticed that in the mag there is a little guide or rail, if you will.
When I load the mag with the rims of all the rounds BEHIND the rail there are NO FTFs. When I get sloppy and allow the rim of a round to get in front of that little rail, Bingo a FTF. It sure is a bitch to get that round out of the mag after that.

Bob

here's a video I made on how to clear it, piece of cake this way.
Stuck round removal


This problem matters to me, because I compete in .22 tactical matches, against a bunch of guys that their 15-22's work, a jam costs me a lot of time...
pinning down the problem when it's so erractic is hard. I go through 10 mags without a jam, take it to a match, and bingo, first stage. We'll see what happens this month.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

here's a video I made on how to clear it, piece of cake this way.
Stuck round removal

That's the way I do it.... though they're wedged in a lot tighter than demo mode.

 

[skip62]

it's happened to me so many times I'm either so well practiced at it or my mags are worn out...lol I can just drop the mag, move the stuck bullet in front of the mag well, pop it out, and shove the mag back up the mag well.

 

[vitamind3]

FTL Update

I think I may have found a pattern. (keep in mind, its snowing, so Ive only thrown 50 rounds, so this may not be enough to really test this theory.) as I load the magazine, i load 2 rounds at a time, and verify that ALL off the rounds end up staggered. I know this sounds like common sense, but unless you specifically verify this, I guarantee that you will end up with some of the rounds stacked as opposed to staggered.

If you DO end up with some stacked, there is no need to empty those rounds out, and try again. Just position the mag so the rounds are aimed toward the sky, take some tension off the spring, and give it a jiggle, smack.. maybe even fart on it. it should only take one or two tries, and it will be sorted out. whatever the method you use, just make sure that theyre staggered. like I said, Ive only thrown 50-75 rounds, but I havnt had ONE FTL. While before I was paying attention to this, I was getting about 2-3 FTL's every magazine.

I hope this helps, and Id like for you guys to test this theory, so we can prove it correct. (hopefully)

Enjoy!

 

[27 Beck]

I think I may have found a pattern. (keep in mind, its snowing, so Ive only thrown 50 rounds, so this may not be enough to really test this theory.) as I load the magazine, i load 2 rounds at a time, and verify that ALL off the rounds end up staggered. I know this sounds like common sense, but unless you specifically verify this, I guarantee that you will end up with some of the rounds stacked as opposed to staggered.

If you DO end up with some stacked, there is no need to empty those rounds out, and try again. Just position the mag so the rounds are aimed toward the sky, take some tension off the spring, and give it a jiggle, smack.. maybe even fart on it. it should only take one or two tries, and it will be sorted out. whatever the method you use, just make sure that theyre staggered. like I said, Ive only thrown 50-75 rounds, but I havnt had ONE FTL. While before I was paying attention to this, I was getting about 2-3 FTL's every magazine.

I hope this helps, and Id like for you guys to test this theory, so we can prove it correct. (hopefully)

Enjoy!

Awaiting reports from the fart portion of the test.

 

[vitamind3]

Awaiting reports from the fart portion of the test.

I think it depends on if theres a Taco Bell close by! lol

 

[Thomas_H]

I think I may have found a pattern. (keep in mind, its snowing, so Ive only thrown 50 rounds, so this may not be enough to really test this theory.) as I load the magazine, i load 2 rounds at a time, and verify that ALL off the rounds end up staggered. I know this sounds like common sense, but unless you specifically verify this, I guarantee that you will end up with some of the rounds stacked as opposed to staggered.

If you DO end up with some stacked, there is no need to empty those rounds out, and try again. Just position the mag so the rounds are aimed toward the sky, take some tension off the spring, and give it a jiggle, smack.. maybe even fart on it. it should only take one or two tries, and it will be sorted out. whatever the method you use, just make sure that theyre staggered. like I said, Ive only thrown 50-75 rounds, but I havnt had ONE FTL. While before I was paying attention to this, I was getting about 2-3 FTL's every magazine.

I hope this helps, and Id like for you guys to test this theory, so we can prove it correct. (hopefully)

Enjoy!

IMO, its a good practice to give the base of the magazine a couple good smacks (while holding the magazine upright) after loading to make sure everything is sitting in place properly. It momentarily relieves the tension from the rounds allowing them to naturally fall into place. I've always done this to any detachable box magazine after when loading (with exception of the ruger 10/22 rotary mags), especially with double stack magazines.

 

[vitamind3]

that IS true, but.. sometimes when youre loading it and you get a couple that are 'stacked' the 'bottom smack' youre describing doesnt work. other times it does work. I think maybe if you do a combination of the two of our ideas/methods, we'll be golden!

The funniest thing about all of this... we're trying to figure out the glitches on a $450 .22! its kind of frustrating, really.

 

[Thomas_H]

Well, sort of. I still haven't had any glitches with mine yet (just over 3k rounds now). The funny thing is my serial number is lower than most that I've seen here. The only thing thats been frustrating me at this point is the cold weather, and the lack of funds for additional accessories (red dot signt, CTR stock, MIAD grip etc). But that is an ongoing problem for my other firearms also. I still have a AR-15 SPR that I built from scratch over a year ago without glass on it yet. Although I did manage to get a pair of MBUS sights for the 15-22 finally.

 

[Evile]

ive gotten pretty good at loading if i pull down just a bit as a put the round in the mag and let up each time 25 times i dont have a problem. I treat it like a mag that doesnt have a helper thumb it in keeping pressure on the bullet the follower assist thing just makes it a little easier on the thumb