Arizona man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter is charged

[JJEH]

Just saw this article on our local news station.

Arizona man who sold ammo to Las Vegas shooter is charged - KSWO 7News | Breaking News, Weather and Sports

I don't want to start up a new LV thread but rather look at the still ongoing investigation.

All this happened yesterday, the above article was published yesterday and updated today.

Arizona ammunition dealer Douglas Haig apparently sold armor-piercing as well as tracer rounds to several people. According to the article to customers in Nevada, Texas, Virginia, Wyoming and South Carolina.

So they found his fingerprints on the cartridges. Seems like they do have a database to compare fingerprints.

Anyone know that guy and/or had dealings with him?

To my understanding he is a licensed ammo manufacturer but not for armor-piercing and tracer rounds?

Perhaps AZ members can chime in?

Please keep this thread as clean as possible and free of politics.

Appreciate it!

 

[chief38]

A technicality - but they are looking to make an example out of him I would venture to say!

 

[JJEH]

A technicality - but they are looking to make an example out of him I would venture to say!

Yeah, probably. The article says

...If convicted, he could face up to five years in prison and a fine as high as $250,000.

Bet that's what the prosecutor is asking for.

 

[Absalom]

A technicality - but they are looking to make an example out of him I would venture to say!

You can call it a technicality, but the law is pretty clear, and he was engaged in criminal activity.

The press coverage makes it obvious that the charges are not specifically related to any connection to the LV shooter, who was just one of many customers; that’s just how they got on his trail.

27 CFR SS 478.37 | eRegulations

 

[RGVshooter]

Well they can charge him all they want, but what was his crime? He didn't do anything illegal or wrong. This is no different than going after a manufacture for liability if someone uses their product in a crime. it's a frivolous attempt.

 

[the ringo kid]

I would like to (well actually do) wonder just WHY-someone wants to manufacture armor-piercing ammo anyway? unless it's for the military? and of course-legal. Ive absolutely zero interest in getting any for any reason. Now as for tracer rounds--id like a batch so I can see where the heck im shooting at-when im shooting a target on the 100 yard range. Tracer rounds ive no probs with-but the other?????

 

[JJEH]

Well they can charge him all they want, but what was his crime? He didn't do anything illegal or wrong.

Article says

...It says Haig didn't have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition.

And that makes it illegal!

 

[PALADIN85020]

Turns out that military armor-piercing .30-06 ammo is more accurate than standard ball. I've shot some of it in the past, and found that to be true. I believe the composite steel-lead-cupro-nickel bullets are more painstakingly crafted. I suspect this guy simply had a supply of the bullets, and handloaded them.

John

 

[4506517]

This brings up a lot of questions:

-When they say "armor piercing" what do they mean? Many consider M855 to be "armor piercing".

-I was under the impression there was no regulation of "armor piercing" ammunition unless it could be fired from a handgun.

-Now, if he did indeed violate any type of licensing protocols, taxing, etc. then I say go after him.

-I always worry when someone says "I would like to (well actually do) wonder just WHY-someone wants to manufacture armor-piercing ammo anyway?" ESPECIALLY on a gun board.

-I would guess (not actually fact based) there has been more damage done with tracers over the years by civilians than with "armor piercing" ammunition.

AS ALWAYS, I could be wrong.

 

[Arm]

Had he applied for a 06FFL he would not be in this right now.
I understand that permit is only fifty dollars or such, tragic.
He will lose everything he owns, sad but, true. I don't agree about what is happening to him, however, the law as it is written is law.

 

[Absalom]

I recommend everyone should read the link to the CFR in post #4 before commenting.

According to multiple accounts (you can easily find others beyond the OP’s link), the criminal complaint charges him with selling AP on over 100 occasions. That was definitely not a case of just hand-loading some bullets he happened to have around.

The guy was producing and selling an illegal product commercially without a license. Nothing “gray area” about it. Whether one agrees with the law is an entirely different question.

 

[4506517]

I'm not saying there is a "gray area".

I specifically said "-Now, if he did indeed violate any type of licensing protocols, taxing, etc. then I say go after him."

I'm not sure how that suggests I am implying there is a "gray area".

I'm also not saying I agree/disagree with the law.

The FACT is that ATF at one time considered M855 to be "armor piercing". There has been NO concrete information as to WHAT he sold that was considered true "armor piercing".

The FACT is that true black tipped M995 "armor piercing" 5.56 is extremely hard to come by. In FACT it is difficult for even the military to come by it last time I checked (this could have changed). I believe the Vegas guy was shooting 5.56, correct?

So, barring any CONCRETE information, what SPECIFIC type of ammunition is in question? I don't know, and I'm going to bet no one here knows.

Which brings us back to this: If he did indeed violate even basic ammunition licensing/taxing (cause let's face it, that's what it is) regulations, then he should rightly be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And if that is the case, how has he been allowed to operate in this manner so openly for so long? I will say almost every ATF person I have had professional inter-action with has been sorely ignorant of MOST firearm/ammunition regulations and laws.

I support his prosecution on licensing/taxing grounds, but find the assertion of "selling armor piercing ammunition" to be purposefully inflammatory....perhaps he was selling "Teflon coated" bullets too.

 

[TomkinsSP]

When they say "armor piercing" what do they mean? Many consider M855 to be "armor piercing".

BATFE has the only opinion that counts. They specifically exempt 855 (and others) from the reg. So, I guess we can presume it's not 855...

 

[Walkingwolf]

I would like to (well actually do) wonder just WHY-someone wants to manufacture armor-piercing ammo anyway? unless it's for the military? and of course-legal. Ive absolutely zero interest in getting any for any reason. Now as for tracer rounds--id like a batch so I can see where the heck im shooting at-when im shooting a target on the 100 yard range. Tracer rounds ive no probs with-but the other?????

Most ammo from modern rifles will pierce personal armor. Hard cast spire point bullets will defeat armor at high enough velocity. What is at question here is was the ammo specifically made to defeat armor, or was it common ammo capable of defeating armor.

Until further details are known it is difficult to say.

Keep in mind this is the same ATF that confiscated air soft rifles because of a youtube spoof video making complete rear ends of themselves.

 

[Absalom]

....but find the assertion of "selling armor piercing ammunition" to be purposefully inflammatory....perhaps he was selling "Teflon coated" bullets too.

Since the statute he is charged under is specifically about “armor-piercing ammunition” and that is what he has been charged with selling, I have a hard time envisioning how that could have been formulated more politically correct so as to not offend the sensibilities of the gun community.

 

[the ringo kid]

Most ammo from modern rifles will pierce personal armor. Hard cast spire point bullets will defeat armor at high enough velocity. What is at question here is was the ammo specifically made to defeat armor, or was it common ammo capable of defeating armor.

Until further details are known it is difficult to say.

Keep in mind this is the same ATF that confiscated air soft rifles because of a youtube spoof video making complete rear ends of themselves.

Right but, I guess I was imagining he was manufacturing something that did even worse?

 

[4506517]

Most ammo from modern rifles will pierce personal armor. Hard cast spire point bullets will defeat armor at high enough velocity. What is at question here is was the ammo specifically made to defeat armor, or was it common ammo capable of defeating armor.

Until further details are known it is difficult to say.

Keep in mind this is the same ATF that confiscated air soft rifles because of a youtube spoof video making complete rear ends of themselves.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

This is probably the most accurate statement in this thread.

"I have a hard time envisioning how that could have been formulated more politically correct so as to not offend the sensibilities of the gun community"

Please believe the ATF could not care less about offending the political sensibilities of the gun community.

I think the ATF is trying to inflame the sensibilities of the non gun community.

While most of us understand the nuances of what is "armor piercing" and what is not, my point is that they are depending on loose interpretation to inflame the non gun community.

Believe me, we do stuff like this in law enforcement all the time.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Since the statute he is charged under is specifically about “armor-piercing ammunition” and that is what he has been charged with selling, I have a hard time envisioning how that could have been formulated more politically correct so as to not offend the sensibilities of the gun community.

Yea the infamous teflon ammo. Yet it was not really needed to puncture level 2 armor. I ordered in the 70's 500 rounds of 115 grain hard cast spire 357 bullets. They were a bullet intended for small game to do as little tissue damage as possible. For grins I loaded some in 38 super to 1300 fps. They consistently punched a hole through second chance test patches. That was with no coating.

I have no longer seen the bullets available. Closest is 105 grain truncated cone, I doubt they have the same capability.

 

[LVSteve]

It was reported here that Haig's name on one of the boxes in Paddock's room. The armor piercing charge seems to be fallout after his premises in AZ were searched.

 

[DWalt]

As in #12, I haven't seen or heard exactly what type of "armor piercing" bullet is in question. M855 is specifically excluded from the "armor piercing" classification. That leaves M995 bullets which are in the "unobtanium" category. I have never even seen one, and I have seen many, many oddball 5.56mm rounds. Maybe the seller was turning brass bullets from brass rods with a lathe, screw machine, or something like that. Whether they were truly AP or not would have had no effect on the shooting results, but I think the guy will get the book thrown at him as a horrible example. That is, if the prosecutors can show that the bullets he sold are in fact AP as defined. On the TV news a few minutes ago it was made clear that the tracer rounds were legal, and were not the AP loads the seller is accused of making and providing to the shooter.