At what point does a "load" become a "Magnum"?

[Rule3]

I am asking this to help determine what hardness of lead bullet to use or not use.

Just for example regardless of the powder, Say for a 44 Special and a 240 gr lead bullet using HP-38 the load goes from:
4.2grs for 716 FPS to 5.2 grs for 858 fps.

If we use the same bullet and powder in a 44 Magnum:

5.5 grs yields 800 fps and up to 11grs yields 1334 fps.

So I would not consider the 800 fps a "magnum" load as it is less than the max of the 44 Special.

Are loads over a certain number, Say 1000fps then a Magnum load?

You can do the same number game with 39 special and 357 magnum with a 158 gr lead bullet.

From what I have read, a softer alloy lead with a hardness of around 12 would be good for lower velocity loads in the 44 special or 39 special where a harder bullet of say 18 in the Magnum loads/speed. But where does one end and the other begin?

(Numbers from Lee Modern, 2nd edition)

 

[EdK]

Your question is a good one but I'm quite sure you will find no single correct answer. As pressure/velocity increase the ideal bullet hardness will shift with as many degrees as colors of the rainbow. In your gun there is likely one ideal hardness for 800fps and another for 1200fps. Arbitrarily call 1200fps the magnum load if you wish... the ideal bullet hardness for your magnum load will not be the same as a 1400fps magnum load in another gun.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

There's no distinct line drawn in the sand.There are only generalities.Depending on components,gun,barrel length,etc,a 44 magnum can be quite safely and dependably able to drive a 240 gr bullet at well in excess of 1400 FPS.Certainly,no one would call the same bullet driven at 800 FPS a magnum but those are extremes.

Figures that are closer will invariably put matters into a grey area.Personally,I wouldn't call a bullet of that weight driven at less than 1200 FPS to be a magnum but others would disagree.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I just realized that your concern is mainly about bullet hardness.This gets into a grey area also.Generally speaking,the harder bullets are better for higher velocity but there are exceptions,Bullet/bore fit,bore smoothness,alloy,velocity,etc,etc....all of it matters.

The only way to KNOW is to test it at the range.You will find that the same load will lead in one gun and not another.

 

[Skip Sackett]

The exact same load can lead in one firearm and not another! Ask me, I know!

Lee has a pressure/harness chart for these purposes that is close to what I have experienced in actuality. Go to their hardness tester and you can look at the manual online. That may help you to understand when to use a harder alloy. It is governed by pressure, for the most part.

If you have a soft bullet that is too small and drive it hard, you may or may not have problems. If you have a bullet that is too hard and small for the bore, and drive it light, you are going to have problems too.

Size first, make them fit, slug your bore. Next, and if the first is done correctly this matters less, hardness. You can fudge a little as making an alloy for most of us is more an art than a science.

Wheel weights + tin is going to make things harder, how much harder, who knows? Add some Linotype to a mix and you will get a harder alloy. Unless you let it sit and then test it, you won't know exactly what the alloy you are working with is going to be. Some folks go to all that trouble as a hobby caster, some of us don't.

Lee tells about a friend of his that had a real scientific test. He used the ball end of a ball peen hammer coupled with a good "whack"! Harder alloy had a small indent, softer had a larger!

FWIW

 

[Rule3]

I do recall the part about hardness in the Lee manual.

What led (no pun) me to all this is the Missouri Bullet page:

Missouri Bullet Company

I have ordered from them several times and must say they are a great place to do business with. Anyway, I purchased some 240 gr LFP but I checked the wrong box. I meant to get the Keith style or the regular magnum bullets but instead I ordered the Cowboy #3 version which has a hardness of 12 as opposed to the magnum bullets with a BHN of 18.

I do load some 44 special and some wimpy 44 Mags. so maybe these will be the correct bullets for general plinking, target shooting.
However, I do like to load up some hot rounds now and then for that good old Magnum punch!
So do not know how fast I can push these.

 

[Skip Sackett]

OCD,
What do they measure? If they are a good .430" or .431", I wouldn't be afraid to drive them babies up to 1200fps or so.

I've been known to drive some pure wheel weights to 1800fps with almost no leading. Here is some information from another website on the subject:

8 BHN immediately after casting and air-cooling
12 BHN about 2 weeks after casting with air-cooling
14-16 BHN in about 2 weeks if tin is added to the mix and air-cooled
18-30 BHN if water quenched
25-35 BHN if heat-treated in an oven and water quenched.

 

[Rule3]

OCD,
What do they measure? If they are a good .430" or .431", I wouldn't be afraid to drive them babies up to 1200fps or so.

I've been known to drive some pure wheel weights to 1800fps with almost no leading. Here is some information from another website on the subject:

I have not measured them myself but they are listed as .430.
I can check them in the AM.

Thanks

 

[SWID]

"Magnum" has to do with chamber pressure. .357 Magnum is built to withstand a much greater chamber pressure than a .38 S&W Special, same for .44 Special and .44 Magnum. The velocity gains are from the greater pressure.

So when your load exceeds the chamber pressure of a .38 Special it's a magnum, more or less. I'm sorry that I don't have at hand right now what all those are.

I guess this might not be of much help and maybe not what you are looking for, but that's the definition.

 

[Paul5388]

The velocity gains are from the greater pressure.

I shoot exactly the same load from a 4" M66 that I shoot in a 22" rifle. The M66 clocks around 1300 fps and the rifle around 1750 fps. The pressure is the same, except for BC gap, so pressure is only one thing that will affect velocity, with barrel length being another thing and with still other things affecting velocity too.

In those same loads, .38 Special BTW, I use a 12 BHN 358429 and don't get any leading at either velocity. They are sized at .3585", or basically as cast size.

Considering a .38 Super and a .38 Special will both shoot a 125 gr bullet at 1200+ fps, it's going to take more than that to be a magnum. A .38/44 will get around 1150 fps with a 158 gr bullet. I think too many are too used to modern loads that don't perform like a magnum should.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
IMOP a handgun bullet that travels in excess of 1000 fps is a "Magnum".
Jimmy

 

[Skip Sackett]

Since it is your opinion,

it can't be wrong. I mean this sincerely. We are entitled to our opinion and being such, it can't be wrong. When we push it off as fact, then is when we can be wrong!

I disagree with you, make no mistake about it. There are TONS of handgun loads that travel over 1000fps that aren't even close to "Magnum" in their effectiveness nor likeness.

Case in point: 380Auto, 90gr Hornady JHP, 4.5gr Winchester AutoComp will give a posted 1012fps. Hardly a magnum load!

In the original understanding of the term "magnum" Wesson made the reference solely on the enlarged cases employed in the 357. Being a wine connoisseur himself, he knew that a large bottle of wine was called a "magnum" bottle.

That's what the term meant in the original sense of it's use, a larger bottle!

 

[Rule3]

OK Guy's, lets simplify this. I agree that the term Magnum is for the larger size but bottom line for my question is:

Can I use the bullets with BHN of 12 for mild magnum loads (say 1000-1200 fps just for a reference point) and not have a leading problem??

I do not really want to buy another box of 500 bullets that are harder for the few batches of true Magnums I may load up.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Why didn't you just say so then!

YES!

You may get some leading but not enough to make it bothersome.

Clean your guns when you are done shooting!

 

[Rule3]

YES!

You may get some leading but not enough to make it bothersome.

Clean your guns when you are done shooting!

I thought I did??, in a round about, long winded, convoluted sort of way

Not to worry about my guns being clean. More worries if I have not removed the rifling from over cleaning them

 

[Vulcan Bob]

I'll toss my two cents worth into the pot. Cast bullet leading can drive ya nuts from gun to gun so I have some generalitys I use. Plain base lead bullet up to 850-900 FPS, over that, a gas checked bullet to about 1250 FPS and over that a jacketed bullet will do nicely. Results will vary! Whats a magnum? A magnum is whatever the father of the round say's it is!

 

[philbo]

Just for giggles I'll share that the local indoor range bans Magnum Loads... apparently they define a magnum load as any cartridge in brass that has the word Magnum on it. 357 & 41, & 44 magnum banned, 10mm, 357 Sig, etc, allowed irregardless of velocity. The desk staff can't be trained to learn ballistics I guess... And if one asks how they "logically" reach the conclusion be parepared for a long period of silence at best.

For the OP, velocity is one part of the equation when dealing with lead bullets, but pressure is the other aspect one must be aware of. With 12 BHN I usually try to keep loads below 18,000 CUP, and this differs with caliber. If I expect to exceed 18,000 CUP, I opt for a higher BHN or gas check. Missouri Bullets has a good explanation here: Missouri Bullet Company

 

[Rule3]

Just for giggles I'll share that the local indoor range bans Magnum Loads... apparently they define a magnum load as any cartridge in brass that has the word Magnum on it. 357 & 41, & 44 magnum banned, 10mm, 357 Sig, etc, allowed irregardless of velocity. The desk staff can't be trained to learn ballistics I guess... And if one asks how they "logically" reach the conclusion be parepared for a long period of silence at best.

For the OP, velocity is one part of the equation when dealing with lead bullets, but pressure is the other aspect one must be aware of. With 12 BHN I usually try to keep loads below 18,000 CUP, and this differs with caliber. If I expect to exceed 18,000 CUP, I opt for a higher BHN or gas check. Missouri Bullets has a good explanation here: Missouri Bullet Company

Thanks for the info. Richard Lee in Modern Reloading on page 129 and on explains the BHN in detail.

I had looked at the formula from Missouri Bullets which you also posted but I am confused as to where they derived the the part of the equation (1422 x .90)??
The 1422 seems to be a constant for converting BHN to compressive strength but what is the .90 ??

It appears to me that they took the 900fps (in the example) and divided by 1000 or moved the decimal point 3 places? But there is no explanation of that.

I tried some calculations with loads in the Lee Manual and it seems that what it is.

For a 240 gr bullet with Win 296 yields 1560fps and 37500 cup

37,500/ (1422 x 1.560)= 16.9 BHN or 17-18

But I do not understand the conversion of the FPS??

 

[Mule88]

SWID is correct. Ive always thought a magnum load was a load from a standard cartridge (.38 special / 357 Mag example) that had higher pressure than the standard cartridge. The one exception I can think of right off would be the 41 mag which didnt have a lower pressured counterpart. The 41 special came after the 41 mag designation. Anyway I think this is right.