Balloon head case data and stupidity

[Vulcan Bob]

Looking for some extra "stonk" for the .45 Auto Rim with 255 LSWC's I checked out my old Speer number 7 manual. The only data for the 255 was with balloon head case's. No problem, I reduced the top charge by 10% and had at it. Well I've been reloading too long to do this sort of thing and must have been full of myself at the time. My reward was very sticky extraction with flattened primers, yikes! Only five shots fired with this one. Lesson relearned was stick to new data and I have other more powerfull guns to shoot!

 

[Ignatz]

I ran for my Speer #7 to see what you were up to. They could have easily tested that load with the "solid head " case like you and had similar bad results. You gota admit, they mentioned the heavy charges of 2400 fall into the "not necessarily recomended class". Whats the difference between a Ballon head case and a solid head case? Sorry if I'm HJing this thread.

 

[oldRoger]

I would stop also, but I am not certain what caused the problem. It may just plain be too hot regardless of case.

If the case was full with your load or even compressed, perhaps it was case related. It would be interesting to try it in an old balloon head case.

Back in the day that balloon headed cases for 44spl were still floating around, and folks were really pushing for velocity, you would see compressed loads of 2400 due to the case switch. Some people thought that a dowel and hammer were necessary accessories, Hand Ejector a meaningless term.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

The balloon head case will have more capacity than a solid head case. The more capacity the less pressure with the same load than a solid head. The solid head is stronger than the balloon head case but this feature does not mean you can run pressures up safely. Yeah I read the not necessairily recommended part too. Faulty logic said my newly made N-frame would handle it!

 

[Bruce51]

I ran for my Speer #7 to see what you were up to. They could have easily tested that load with the "solid head " case like you and had similar bad results. You got to admit, they mentioned the heavy charges of 2400 fall into the "not necessarily recommended class". Whats the difference between a Balloon head case and a solid head case? Sorry if I'm HJing this thread.

No problem with asking about balloon head cases. There still out there and are great for blackpowder loads. Click on the picture to see the difference. Bruce

 

[Skip Sackett]

Bob,
You are right, you did the wrong thing! Not in using the data but in how you extrapolated the one you used.

Now, what powder did you use? You didn't mention that. There are only two listed there in the Speer #7.

I can say this, I have the mold that casts the 240gr bullet below the 255gr. I have used the Speer #8 data with 2400 and my bullet fired in my M625JM and gotten the results they post with no ill affects. Those loads go all the way back to the Speer #6 by the way. In the Speer #5 though the loads for my bullet differ greatly. The only cases they list in the #5 are for balloon head ones while the newer Speer books call out modern brass. The difference in the two is considerable! 3gr as a matter of fact!

If you would have extrapolated the data from the 240gr bullet with the modern cases you would have been more in the ball park. In the #5 with a 240gr bullet and 2400 with balloon cases it says a maximum load of 18gr! The same bullet in the Speer #8 says to only use 15gr as a maximum. I would have understood that to mean that there was a 3gr difference in the type of cases used. For your bullet at 255gr @17gr for the maximum in the #7 you would have only reduced that load by 1.7gr, not nearly enough!

If you would have reduced it by 3gr, somewhere in the neighborhood of 14gr and THEN reduced by 10%, you would have been much better off. To get their results though all of the other components would have had to be the same too. Probably not!

I am sure you will say, lesson learned. The lesson isn't in using the data but in using it correctly!

Hope this helps!

 

[Spotteddog]

I found out the hard way circa' 73' with only 12 grains of 2400 in a C/A Bulldog. 'Nuff for me!

 

[Alk8944]

The solution to this issue is very simple, forget that old .45 AR data for balloon head cases and simply use a current manual and the data for .45 ACP standard pressure loads.

Remember, or maybe you weren't aware since it was nearly 90 years ago, the .45 AR is nothing but a rimmed .45 ACP. This was introduced by Remington-UMC during the 1920s as an alternative to using the half-moon clips in the Colt and S&W Model 1917 revolvers. Back then shooters considered the clips a pain in the back-side instead of a convenience.

 

[Skip Sackett]

That's fine if you don't want all you can get out of the cartridge!

The solution to this issue is very simple, forget that old .45 AR data for balloon head cases and simply use a current manual and the data for .45 ACP standard pressure loads.

The last part of your quote is quite accurate. I happen to disagree totally with the first part though.

The reason is the platform that the rounds are going to be fired in. If I have a semi-auto firearm, shooting standard 45ACP loads is right and fine, no disagreement there. No need to batter the snot out of the slide and all with those heavy rounds.

Once you migrate to the revolver platform though, all of that is out the window for me. Do I shoot standard 45ACP loads out of my M625JM? 99.9% of the time. It is that one tenth of the time though that I MAY want a load to bring down a medium sized deer or have a trail (no bears around) defensive round. When I want that do you know what I am going to go for? One of these babies traveling about 1100fps out of that 4" tube, that's what!

Or something out of this lineup!

Or this:

I won't feel under gunned and I won't be worried about blowing up my gun. I can guarantee this too; I will have eeked out every bit that the cartridge can give me when I need it to do so.

 

[Paul5388]

Skip,

I've had the Ohaus bullet on the right up close to 1500 fps in .45 Colt and even with the small lube groove, it still doesn't lead.

I have started using .45 Super brass for the heavier loads. It isn't a matter of identification, since it's hard to mistake that 270 gr bullet, but it does let me know it's pretty much a max load for 625 use only.

BTW, Speer #7 lists both balloon head and solid head .45 AR loads on the same page.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

For whatever it may be worth,I agree with every single word that Skip has said on this subject.Some assesments are a joy to read and his (on this thread and topic)fall into that category.

 

[Beaver]

Within the last year or so, Brian Pearce in Handloader wrote an excellent piece about the 45AR and he brings it thoroughly up to date. A very good read. I've been using the RCBS mold 270SAA w/ 270-285 grain cast along with some 250 SWC's. My 25-2 seems to like both.

 

[ddixie884]

Smith Crazy, it looks like you may be roll crimping your heavy SWC's in auto brass. I used to do that in the early 80's. I think a .45ACP revolver, with moon clips and that round is BIG medicine.