Be Right, Be Right, BE RIGHT!!

[biku324]

What an awful story.


A 9-year-old girl in Houston, Texas, died on Tuesday after being shot in the head by a robbery victim who believed he was shooting at the person who had robbed him.

As KTRK reported, Arlene Alvarez was shot in the head while her family was driving by a hold-up at an ATM at a Chase bank location on Monday night.

According to the police, a man went up to a couple — a man and a woman — who were at the ATM in their vehicle and robbed them at gunpoint. The man got out of his car and shot at the robber as well as a pick-up he believed he was escaping with.

However, the truck belonged to the Alvarez family who was going out for pizza for Valentines Day, KTRK reported.

"I heard the bullets," Arlene's father Armando Alvarez said, according to the station. "First instinct was to speed up. As soon as I speed up, what are you doing? You're already coming next to him and going toward the guy shooting. So I guess when I sped up he thought I'm with that guy. He shot four or five times."

Armando said that he instructed his family to get down, but Arlene was unable to hear him due to having her headphones in and watching a video. Arlene was taken to the hospital in critical condition.

The Houston Police identified the shooter as Tony D. Earls, 41. He has been charged with aggravated assault. On Tuesday afternoon, the authorities shared that Arlene had been pronounced dead.

9-year-old Houston girl dies after being shot by robbery victim: police | TheHill

 

[Buford57]

I do not have the words to express my sympathy for the girl's family.

It should go without saying that once the robber was leaving he was no longer a threat. It should go without saying that if the police are not authorized to shoot at fleeing felons, neither are armed citizens. It should go without saying that you must be sure not only of your target but what is behind it.

It should but we are daily reminded that it can't.

 

[lrrifleman]

Words are hard to find in order to express empathy to this child's parents.

Fortunately, this tragedy offers a teachable moment: we own every round that we fire! It drives home the reality that we all must be certain of our target and what lays beyond! We all say that we carry for self-defense, but we must also remember that when the threat flees/retreats, there is no more threat and it is then the time to reassess the situation!

 

[Echo40]

The shooter ought to be punished to the fullest extent of the law for his gross negligence. You don't shoot at a fleeing target, nor do you shoot into a vehicle because you think that it's the getaway vehicle, neither is a legally justifiable action, much less the action of a responsible citizen.

The shooter was a spineless coward who only had the guts to draw his gun on a fleeing attacker AFTER he had already been successfully robbed, not to mention an irresponsible fool who was more interested in punishing the criminal and/or getting his money back than he was in public safety. Due to his cowardly, selfish, negligent, and blatantly illegal actions, a little girl is dead, and for what? So he could get his money back? So that he could punish the perpetrator? So that he could attempt to salvage his already discarded masculinity after he had already given into the demands of a thief who could have killed him anyway?
Well, I hope that he's prepared to accept the consequences of his actions, including the loss of his freedom, living with the guilt of the girl he shot dead, and all of the indignities of prison life which pale in comparison to the minor indignity of allowing a thief to potentially escape with his money.

 

[wellthought1]

Remember AOJ when it comes to self defense.

A = Ability
O = Opportunity
J = Jeopardy

All three elements must be present to justify using lethal force in self-defense. A fleeing subject MAY still have the Ability to cause serious bodily harm or death to a person as they flee with a weapon in hand. A fleeing subject no longer has the Opportunity to cause serious bodily harm or death. Also, a fleeing subject no longer should cause a reasonable person to believe he/she is experiencing Jeopardy (they are about to take their last breath).

This is very serious and all law-abiding, responsible, gun owners should know this.

I'm no expert, but I would be absolutely sure that all three elements exist in order to justify using lethal force in self-defense. Lethal force is not justified in defense of property. Know your state's laws on self-defense. Also, the objective in self-defense using lethal force is not to kill the subject but, rather, to STOP the subject. If one shot from a gun accomplishes this goal then stop shooting.

In some states, a reasonable person must attempt to retreat before using lethal force. In other states, a reasonable person has no duty to retreat (stand your ground law). Again, know your state's laws on self-defense before carrying a lethal weapon.

The shooter in the OP was very likely outside the bounds of the law - no shooting in defense of property, no shooting because there was no Opportunity for the subject to cause serious bodily harm or death, and no Jeopardy for the shooter. The shooter will definitely have to answer to his purportedly unjustified use of force.

Here is a decent article on the matter:

http://www.shielddefensetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Use-of-Force.pdf

If in doubt about the legalities of the use of leathal force talk to your attorney.

 

[ukcats]

Very sad. Prayers for the family.

 

[sourdough44]

Yes, shooting at a 'fleeing' robber is bad, no longer the immediate threat. It sounds like he also got the vehicle wrong, those in that car weren't involved.

Similar has even happened to police, at least they have some legal protection in the course of official duties.

I didn't see if the shooter had a CC permit, not that it would matter all that much.

He may not have many resources, I'd expect jail time & be ruined financially.

 

[Buford57]

Rather than hijack this thread, I am posting a similar situation with several twists under the heading "John Wick Fantasy Gone Wrong" relating to a Chicago shooting.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I don't know the law in Texas but in many places, besides the moral issue involved, the shooter would be in SERIOUS legal trouble. A tragic mess all around.

 

[SAFireman]

I bet the shooter will be in deep trouble. Castle doctrine will not protect him, and any stand-your-ground defense is moot against an uninvolved party.

What an awful loss...I can't imagine that the family will get any comfort from the guy being jailed, or any amount of recovery on the civil side.

 

[wellthought1]

I bet the shooter will be in deep trouble. Castle doctrine will not protect him, and any stand-your-ground defense is moot against an uninvolved party.

What an awful loss...I can't imagine that the family will get any comfort from the guy being jailed, or any amount of recovery on the civil side.

I agree. The shooter will be in deep trouble. I feel so sorry for the family.

 

[StakeOut]

If you are ever involved in a shooting make no statements to anyone.
All statements to police should be made by your attorney.
Your loose lips may send you to prison.

 

[waffles]

If you are ever involved in a shooting make no statements to anyone.
All statements to police should be made by your attorney.
Your loose lips may send you to prison.

Probably better advice not to shoot at a fleeing robber. Better still not to shoot at the wrong vehicle. Even better than those two, don't shoot a 9 year old. Talking to the police is about the least wrong thing this guy could do.

 

[StakeOut]

Probably better advice not to shoot at a fleeing robber. Better still not to shoot at the wrong vehicle. Even better than those two, don't shoot a 9 year old. Talking to the police is about the least wrong thing this guy could do.

You are talking with you heart and not your head.

Evan as a police officer involved in 11 shootings I spoke only to the attorney sent by the police union.

 

[waffles]

You are talking with you heart and not your head.

Dude killed a 9 year old bystander. I'd be a bit concerned if my head was on his side

 

[StakeOut]

Dude killed a 9 year old bystander. I'd be a bit concerned if my head was on his side

Sad but things happen in the heat of the moment.

Don't be a monday morning quaterback and believe everything you read.
I you ever are unfortunate and get directly involved then speak from 1st hand knowledge.
A jury determines your guilt not the court of public opinion or press clippings.

 

[wellthought1]

Apparently, lethal force is justified in Texas for defense of property. It's in the law code:

Texas Penal Code - § 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

However, in this case, shooting irresponsibly into a vehicle and killing an innocent nine year old girl is a terrible thing. The shooter should and (likely) will be prosecuted.

 

[Sistema1927]

When i lived in Texas, and knowing that the state allows one to shoot to protect/recover property, I had to determine my own personal "rules of engagement".

Come into my home at night? You are going to get shot, because I don't know whether you are there to steal or kill me. In all other instances, I determined that I would only use deadly force for protection of myself and my family. I can buy more stuff. I cannot live with myself for shooting someone who wanted my TV.

 

[K Frame Keith]

Prayers for the victim's family. There's nothing right about this chain of events.

 

[Greyman50]

Long time friend was LEO in a well know coastal town. He was off one day walking out to his mail box when a car came by and smashed his mail box with a bat. He knew his neighborhood had 1 way in and one way out so he waited by his mail box. Sure enough the car came back down the road. He pulled his badge out holding it at arms length for the car to stop. Well, driver tried to run him over. He jumped out of the way , pulled his pistol and shot the Back of the car. Turns out one of the punks in the car was a city councilman's son. He was fired and charged with some obscure misdemeanor. He was told he could not shoot at a vehicle once it passed him. Anyway, he moved and is doing fine now.