bear defense question

[Sailfish 40]

when i worked in alaska i was issued either a 375 h&h or a remington 870 loaded with slugs when i was in brown bear country. thinking back on it i wonder if a magazine fed 308 like and ar 10 or in my case an fal with 20 rounds would be more effective.
what to you guys think?

 

[federali]

Self Defense First

If I'm sport hunting bears, I'd go with a potent bolt action rifle. But, if I'm carrying solely for self-defense with no thought to traditional hunting ethics, I'd go with the higher capacity semi-auto.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Legendary African hunter Karamojo Bell used a 7X57 Mauser exclusively, taking hundreds of elephants with brain shots and 175-grain solids. For this to work the animal had to be stalked very carefully and the shot taken at an oblique angle at relatively close range. I seriously doubt that an experienced hunter would make the same choice of rifle and ammunition for use against an agitated bull elephant charging him, exposing little more than the thickly armored skull and massive front shoulders.

The big bears (grizzlies, browns, polar bears) are tough critters. Thick hides, massive bone structures, and vitals in locations that require deep penetration. They live at the top of the food chain within their environments and can be very aggressive at times, with attack methods that do not present the ideal circumstances for shot placement into the vitals. Such conditions would favor the enormous shocking power of the big bore rifles and 12-gauge slugs, capable of breaking or penetrating the heavy bones, and even without an immediately lethal hit they are still able to deliver a massive dose of energy.

The .308 Winchester is fairly comparable to the 7X57 Mauser. The range of bullet weights is similar, as are muzzle velocities and energies generated. Heavily constructed .30 caliber bullets are available for use with the .308, however the actions and magazine dimensions of many semi-autos will rule out the use of some of the longer and heavier bullets. Gas operated semi-autos also require ammunition operating within a somewhat narrow range of performance for the action to cycle properly, further limiting ammunition choices.

I have little doubt that a .308 Winchester is capable of killing the large bears. I think I would prefer to limit its use for this purpose to stalking and shooting at ranges that would permit multiple shots if necessary. Even under those conditions the larger bore rifles with heavier bullets would be preferable.

Of course, if I were being attacked by a large bear I would use whatever was at hand and hope for the best. But if given the choice I think I'd prefer the big bore rifles or the shotgun.

 

[Art Doc]

I once suggested to Remington that their semi-auto hunting rifle (M7400?) in 338 Magnum would be a big hit with folks in bear country. They sent me a 3 page contract releasing any and all interest in such a design before they would respond to my comment. I signed the release and returned it so they could reply "This concept doesn't fit our needs at this time."

I'm thing a 16" semi-auto rifle with a 5 round detachable magazine in a short 375 caliber. The 35 Whelan is the '06 necked up to .358, has anyone made a 358 from the 7.62x39 case? Might work well in a compact action, Wonder if meaningful velocity would be possible with 200 grain bullets?

 

[Jessie]

I would think the .450 bushmaster loaded hot with solids in a 16" AR would work pretty well. And it's already out there.

 

[Jaysq]

Here in the Smoky Mountains, we take a more simple approach to Bears. Anytime we go into the woods we always take a real old friend or a real fat friend. That way if we come across a bear, we only have to outrun our friend.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I once suggested to Remington that their semi-auto hunting rifle (M7400?) in 338 Magnum would be a big hit with folks in bear country. They sent me a 3 page contract releasing any and all interest in such a design before they would respond to my comment. I signed the release and returned it so they could reply "This concept doesn't fit our needs at this time."

I'm thing a 16" semi-auto rifle with a 5 round detachable magazine in a short 375 caliber. The 35 Whelan is the '06 necked up to .358, has anyone made a 358 from the 7.62x39 case? Might work well in a compact action, Wonder if meaningful velocity would be possible with 200 grain bullets?

The .35 Whelan is about as large as the '06 case can be opened up and still maintain adequate shoulder for headspacing. The 7.62X39 case would probably present even greater limitations, especially sufficient case capacity to launch much heavier bullets. Existing semi-auto actions might, or might not, be able to function reliably because of the differences in peak pressures and pressure curves.

The wildcat .35/30-30 was moderately popular back in the 1960's and 1970's, usually with heavy cast bullets for use in lever action hunting rifles. Probably a fairly short range combination.

About 30 years ago I caught a deal on a used short action Remington 700 on hand with a badly bulged barrel. I devised a cartridge based on the .308 Winchester necked up to .338 caliber, RCBS made the dies for me, and Douglas produced the barrel. I dubbed this the 8.5X51mm.

Performance with 200 grain spitzers was in the 2300FPS range. The 250 grain bullets topped out at aroud 2100FPS. Purchased a bullet mold for a 220 grain RN-GC (cast in Linotype metal @ 206 grains with gas check) and loaded those to 2000FPS. Groups well under 3" at 100 yards, and pie plates at 200 yards weren't difficult. Kept the sights adjusted for 3" high at 100 yards and used the same point of aim out to 200.

I considered it to be excellent for elk hunting in the timber. Redfield receiver sight and ivory bead front ramp sight. Under 8 pounds with sling.

Rifle was stolen in a burglary of my home and never recovered. Someone probably found out that there was no such thing as factory ammo for it and threw it away. I'd like to have it back, but at today's prices for barrels, custom reloading dies, and good gunsmith work I'm not willing to recreate it just yet.

Bolt action, lever action, and single shot rifles present fewer challenges than the semi-autos which require ammunition functioning within a specific range for which the action was designed.

 

[Rule3]

Oh Goodie, a Bear thread!

 

[Kanewpadle]

Stalking and shooting a bear for sport versus defending yourself against one are two different things.

If charged by a bear you have two areas to shoot at. Head which is inadvisable, or the chest. Even if you destroy the heart, if may not be enough. We advocated shooting at the top of the chest/low neck area to hit the spine or shoulders.

IMO 12 ga slugs are best. Bigger is better in this case.

In our fishing parties there was always at least one 12 ga and everyone carried a 44 magnum revolver. Sometimes 45-70 and 444 lever guns too.

 

[mc5aw]

I'd be inclined to shy away from a magazine fed .308 and stick with a big caliber bolt or lever gun. I've always been enamored by the .45-70 brush guns and even entertained the thought of indulging in a Wild West Guns Co-Pilot. Since the WWG TV show, prices have increased to ~ $3K for one of the take-downs, so that dream has gone up in smoke. For a fraction of that, I'd search out a vintage Marlin lever action in .45-70 or even .444 for bear, and leave the mag fed .308 for some other task.

 

[Nevada Ed]

You are probably not going to get more than three rounds off at a charging bear................. that 20 round clip is not worth a hill of beans.

In thick cover or on a trail two shots off would be nice.......

I don't want to limit myself with a little 308 !!

A friend that does studies up there trained with a 12 Ga. He said he wanted a 10 Ga. but.................
his shoulder was black and "Purple" from the 12 Ga. recoil.
The 10 would probably dislocate his shoulder ?!

 

[Kanewpadle]

You bring up a good point Ed. There is the possibility that you may have to shoot from the hip. That won't be so easy with a black rifle. A pump shotgun would be much easier.

 

[mc5aw]

You bring up a good point Ed. There is the possibility that you may have to shoot from the hip. That won't be so easy with a black rifle. A pump shotgun would be much easier.

Impractical with a bolt gun too. I'm with Brother Kanew on this one ... Pump Gun first, then I'd go lever action.

 

[NYlakesider]

I lived out in the boonies and could have a bear problem (among other dangerous animals). They are around and do come down off the mountain that comes out right at the back of our property.

As we also are far from LEO aid I wanted a do all gun that would do a good job on both type of predators. (Human and 4 legged)

My choice is a 12 gauge 9 shot pump. As I figure my primary use is evil people the first few rounds are 00 buck with slugs behind them in the magazine tube.

Taking the humans out of the picture and having a bear attempting to enter the house or climbing up to get at the screened front porch my drill is to shoot off the 00 buck into the face and upper chest of the bear and then putting the slugs into the upper chest area. I'm well versed in operating a pump gun as I shot skeet for many years with pumps and learned long ago to fire & pump basically as one fluid motion (repeat as many times as needed.) I have practiced/do practice and I can empty the mag even with those heavy kicking loads quite easily and proficiently.

A bear incursion to the house is possible as my side door leads to the kitchen (all those cooking smells) and we have 3 large Coon cats’ 20-30 pounders and if a hungry bear saw them a house visit could be a comming. Definitely possible not so probable, BUT IT COUD HAPPEN.

Twelve gauge slugs at reasonably close distances will get the attention of anything in North America that needs an attitude adjustment!

 

[Sailfish 40]

You are probably not going to get more than three rounds off at a charging bear................. that 20 round clip is not worth a hill of beans.

In thick cover or on a trail two shots off would be nice.......

I don't want to limit myself with a little 308 !!

A friend that does studies up there trained with a 12 Ga. He said he wanted a 10 Ga. but.................
his shoulder was black and "Purple" from the 12 Ga. recoil.
The 10 would probably dislocate his shoulder ?!

this is a great point and why i preferred the 12 gauge, as long as i didnt miss. i was thinking about the 308 and wondering if the first couple of rounds would slow a charging brownie enough to dump the rest of the magazine in him.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Ballistics have brought the .308 up to 30-06 level, and as ex army-I like your idea. Just keep pulling the trigger, and with less recoil in an auto loader. I understand a guide outfit not wanting a "greenhorn" spraying down the area, but hey...?

 

[Kanewpadle]

this is a great point and why i preferred the 12 gauge, as long as i didnt miss. i was thinking about the 308 and wondering if the first couple of rounds would slow a charging brownie enough to dump the rest of the magazine in him.

I saw a brown bear take three solid hits from a 338 magnum at 200 yards. He dropped dead 150 yards later. All three rounds went through the chest the first being through the heart and the other two through the lungs.

On the charge they are difficult to hit effectively and even harder to put down.

 

[BigBill]

The 375 H & H (Holland & Holland) or the 12ga 400gr slug either one I think would do the job.

Today I don't hunt with anything under a 338win. mag. In my retired, old golden years I'm not built for running nor speed. I also believe the newer 338cal whizz bang improved calibers of today are replacing the old longtime faithful 375 H & H slowly but surely. The more the gun rags do articles on the 375 H & H the array of different New 338 rounds are there with it. The Winchester 338wm is also starting to take a back seat too.
With its 4,000ft.lbs. @ muzzle and 2,700ft.lbs. @ 200yards that's the muzzle energy of a 30-06 @ 200yds with a 250gr bullet . This grandpa of the 338calibers still can hold its own.

When I wanted to bump up my power from the 30-06 I went away from the 30 calibers. Even the 300win. mag. wasn't too far a head from the 30-06. I didn't want a baby step up in power I wanted a leap ahead in power.
The 375 H & H was next on my list but I liked the ballastics of the 338win. mag. This was before the new whizz bang calibers were offered.

Plus my hunting ethics instilled in me from my older brother my mentor is to make a quick clean kill. I don't want to give him a bee sting I want to drop him like yesterday's lunch on the spot. I don't like helping people look for there wounded bears they probably shot in the butt, we were in the monsoon type pouring rains looking for someone's wounded bear. It wasn't fun. We went out looking many times. The blood trail dried up. Seeing this told me it wasn't a boiler maker shot it was a butt shot were the fat closed up the hole.

A year later we caught a female bear coming from the Apple orchard going to her den on the ridge. When we butchered the bear I cut steaks and found a 30cal bullet in her butt that was healed over. This was the bear we were looking for in the rain. What scared me was the perfectly shaped 30cal bullet it had in her. It makes me think it was under powered.

Make your shots count.

I had one guy hunt with us who told me he could hit a bear five times with a 45/70 and kill it. I told my brother not to help him out until he wets his pants if he's that stupid. Then he told me if he helps me kill my bear it's his. I never invited him again. I seen my 338 bullet go threw the bear taking vitals out in its path breaking 3 ribs on the exit hole that the taxidermy had to sew up.

 

[bullmack]

A few years ago I built a cabin in the middle of British Columbia bear country (both kinds) and I asked the same question. I was pointed toward an Alaska study that, for purely self defense, recommended 12 gauge shotgun. The large rifle calibers were deemed inappropriate unless the person had a lot of experience handling the gun. I carry a Mossberg 500 Mariner with slugs, buckshot, and even rubber buckshot as options. 1st load is always a slug. In 13 years I've never had to use it. Closest incident was actually with a rutting bull moose that was seriously eying me over as a mate! (with drool and snot)

 

[BigBill]

The 375 H & H (Holland & Holland) or the 12ga 400gr slug either one I think would do the job.

Today I don't hunt with anything under a 338win. mag. In my retired, old golden years I'm not built for running nor speed. I also believe the newer 338cal whizz bang improved calibers of today are replacing the old longtime faithful 375 H & H slowly but surely. The more the gun rags do articles on the 375 H & H the array of different New 338 rounds are there with it. The Winchester 338wm is also starting to take a back seat too.
With its 4,000ft.lbs. @ muzzle and 2,700ft.lbs. @ 200yards that's the muzzle energy of a 30-06 @ 200yds with a 250gr bullet . This grandpa of the 338calibers still can hold its own.

When I wanted to bump up my power from the 30-06 I went away from the 30 calibers. Even the 300win. mag. wasn't too far a head from the 30-06. I didn't want a baby step up in power I wanted a leap ahead in power.
The 375 H & H was next on my list but I liked the ballastics of the 338win. mag. This was before the new whizz bang calibers were offered.

Plus my hunting ethics instilled in me from my older brother my mentor is to make a quick clean kill. I don't want to give him a bee sting I want to drop him like yesterday's lunch on the spot. I don't like helping people look for there wounded bears they probably shot in the butt, we were in the monsoon type pouring rains looking for someone's wounded bear. It wasn't fun. We went out looking many times. The blood trail dried up. Seeing this told me it wasn't a boiler maker shot it was a butt shot were the fat closed up the hole.

A year later we caught a female bear coming from the Apple orchard going to her den on the ridge. When we butchered the bear I cut steaks and found a 30cal bullet in her butt that was healed over. This was the bear we were looking for in the rain. What scared me was the perfectly shaped 30cal bullet it had in her. It makes me think it was under powered.

Make your shots count.

I had one guy hunt with us who told me he could hit a bear five times with a 45/70 and kill it. I told my brother not to help him out until he wets his pants if he's that stupid. Then he told me if he helps me kill my bear it's his. I never invited him again. I seen my 338 bullet go threw the bear taking vitals out in its path breaking 3 ribs on the exit hole that the taxidermy had to sew up.

I been shooting and hunting with a 30-06 since I was 18 years old. I took my new 338 in '94 and put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds. while sighting it in. My point is to practice, practice and more practice. Build up your shooting skills to the max level and keep it there. My '06 has about 1,000 rounds thru it now. Know your weapon before your life depends on it.