Black powder loads in 2nd Model HE

[johncantiusgarand]

Well, I traded recently for one of the more common Canadian-issued .455 hand ejectors that were later converted to .45 Colt by reaming and shortening the cylinder. Finish shows lots of dings, scratches, and wear (especially on the last couple of inches of the barrel and backstrap). But there is no pitting, the bore is excellent, and it is otherwise perfect mechanically. Incidentally, this is one of the "R.M.T.C." marked ones that no one can tell me anything about except that it possibly stood for "Royal Military Training Centre".

Anyway, I'm not seeking information on its history but rather some reloading advice. I fired it the day I got it using standard factory Winchester 255 gr. loads, and it was accurate and pleasant. I have no idea what the pressure and velocity was. Since the strength of these conversions is questionable anyway, I'd rather not subject it to a regular diet of modern factory ammunition. I suppose I should just load up some mild smokeless loads for it, but I can't stand those "cowboy loads". Sure, the .45 Colt is no magnum, but it was still a powerful cartridge in its day, and that is part of its allure. A .45 Colt limited to such mild loads just feels neutered to me--regardless of the fact that I'll probably never shoot it at anyting other than targets.

I encountered frustrations trying to duplicate safe original .45 ballistics in my Colt SAA using published loads. The reloading manuals never got me anywhere near 900 f.p.s. with 255gr. bullets, and velocities were inconsistent due to the tiny charges in that large case. So I tried black powder and swore I'd never go back. I get consistent 900f.p.s.+ with black powder, and I do it with less pressure than smokeless (or at least with a more gentle pressure curve). Clean up is no big deal, and I can usually shoot 50-60 rounds before fouling starts to stiffen cocking. So I'm considering using these in my HE. The very presence of a fouling cup in the topstrap suggests that S&W anticipated the use of black powder loads, but I'm wondering how well the rest of the revolver deals with heavy black powder fouling. Anyone else use black powder in their older S&W hand ejectors?

 

[deadin]

My best advice would be "Try it and see". It won't hurt anything. One concern might be if the rifling is shallower the fouling could affect the accuracy sooner than in a gun designed for BP.
Let us know how it works out.......

 

[glowe]

Although a little more expensive, Triple Seven is my choice for revolvers. Loads same volume, produces lots of smoke, delivers same velocities, is cleaner than BP, is easy to find, and is non-corrosive. Triple Seven does not leave any sulfur residue, which is a main contributor to corrosion. Clean Shot is another alternative.

Another option is to use a filler with lighter smokeless loads. I reload 45LC and use Puff-lon to fill the case. Fill over the powder and compress when seating the bullet. Gives very good uniformity in your loads.

 

[Muley Gil]

Lots of Cowboy Action Shooters use black powder loads in their single actions with no ill effects.

 

[everettstiles]

Pray tell....where would one look to find an old Hand Ejector as you describe.....Gunsamerica.com has one priced @ $1,200....that's not hardly a military surplus price....

 

[2152hq]

I used Clean Shot (American Pioneer) in 45acp in a converted Webley MkIII and still load 455 in a MkVI,,also 44wcf for a 73 Winchester.
No fouling what so ever. Shoot one cylinder full or 100 rds. Nothing to tie up the action from functioning.
Easier to clean ( I shoot the real stuff too) and the 45acp rounds will also function a 1911 Colt if that's of interest.
Decent accuracy in the 1911 too but followup shots aren't as quick.

Alot of back and forth on the M/L forums about the corrosive nature of 777. I don't know, I've never used it. Can't be any worse than BP if left unattended too after shooting.

Getting the residue out of the action is the tough part of using anything corrosive in something like a revolver where you might not be completely dissassembling for cleaning.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I shoot real Black Powder in CAS all the time. I tried APP once, but I found it is actually more corrosive than real Black Powder. I made up some 38 S&W loads with APP for one of my S&W Top Break pocket pistols because I did not want to bother pan lubing some regular hard cast bullets for BP. Two days after cleaning the gun I took another look at it and there was light rust in the bore, chambers, and on the cylinder pin. I have never had that happen after cleaning a gun shot with real Black Powder. Cleaned it again and made a note to myself to pan lube my 38 S&W bullets for real BP next time.

I also shoot real Black Powder in my New Model #3 and my DA 44. Both of these guns are chambered for 44 Russian. They were also designed specifically for Black Power, as were all the Top Breaks. The arrangement of the gas collar and its relationship to the barrel/cylinder gap is what makes these guns work so well with Black Powder. I can shoot them all day long and they do not bind up.

For what it's worth, Black Powder is not as corrosive as many believe. It was the combination of Black Powder fouling AND corrosive primers that caused most of the problems in the old days. We don't use corrosive primers anymore and consequently Black Powder ammo does not cause the corrosion problems that it used to. I often wait a week or so before cleaning my guns after shooting them with BP. I won't mention here how long I have actually gone, suffice it to say it was a lot more than a week.

That relief cut in the underside of the top strap really does not do anything. My Colts have a relief cut like that, there has never been so much fouling that it fills up the relief cut.

If you want to shoot BP in your Hand Ejector, make sure you use a bullet that carries LOTS of BP compatible bullet lube. The more lube, the longer the gun will run without binding up. I cast my own Big Lube bullets for 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40 and 44 Russian. I lube the HUGE lube groove with SPG when I size them. If you want a source for these bullets PM me and I will put you in touch with a caster who sells them.

No, I have never shot real Black Powder in my 44 Hand Ejectors, but if I was going to I would use 200 grain 44 Mav-Dutchman Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG in front of a charge of FFg lightly compressed between 1/16" - 1/8". For 45 Colt I would use either the 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet, or the 200 grain J/P 45-200. There are even some lighter bullets than have recently been developed for Black Powder and 45 Colt but I have not tried any of them. Again, in front of a lightly compressed charge. Do not leave any airspace. Don't forget, if you want a lighter load you can use the same bullets with the 45 Schofield case, and if you want an even lighter load you can use the 45 Cowboy Special cases. Both are produced by Starline.

I would clean it with my regular BP cleaning solution consisting of equal parts of Murphy's Oil Soap, drugstore Hydrogen Per Oxide, and Rubbing Alcohol. After cleaning the gun thoroughly I would be sure to use Q-Tips to work some of the solution down inside the innards of the gun. Then I would put a light rust preventive coating of Ballistol on the gun and also work some down inside the mechanism. Black Powder fouling looses its ability to suck moisture out of the air if it is infused with an oil like Ballistol. Once saturated with oil the fouling simply cannot absorb any moisture from the air. Its like a sponge that is already saturated with water. It can't absorb any more. You can talk about sulfur and acids and bases and neutralizing until you are blue in the face, but I have been cleaning my BP guns this way for years. I only take them apart about once a year to clean out the black, oily guck down inside. There is always plenty of black, oily guck, there is never any rust.

Regarding using Black Powder with modern rifling, I have never seen any reduction in accuracy with Black Powder. The drop off in accuracy usually happens when the rifling fills up with hard fouling. Using plenty of BP compatible bullet lube is the answer to that. When enough lube is used, it keeps the fouling moist for the entire length of the barrel, and each succeeding bullet sweeps out most of the fouling left behind by the last bullet. In fact, this is only really important in a rifle length barrel, the last six inches or so of a rifle barrel can get starved for lube if the bullets don't carry enough. If the bullets get starved for lube, the fouling will turn hard and adversely affect accuracy. But this seldom happens in a short pistol barrel, it does not require as much lube to keep the fouling in a pistol barrel moist for the entire length of the barrel.

I used to pan lube conventional hard cast bullets for Black Powder. Generally speaking, the skimpy lube grooves in modern bullets did not carry enough lube to keep the fouling moist for the entire length of the barrel. But I had less problems with the shorter barrels of a pistol. However using LOTS of BP lube on your bullets will not only keep the fouling moist in the barrel, it will also keep the fouling deposited on the face of the cylinder moist, as well as any that gets past the gas collar and onto the cylinder pin. Again, moist fouling is the key. If it is not allowed to harden, the gun will keep rolling much longer without binding.

 

[johncantiusgarand]

"Pray tell....where would one look to find an old Hand Ejector as you describe.....Gunsamerica.com has one priced @ $1,200....that's not hardly a military surplus price...."

I would imagine that the one on Gunsamerica must have a great finish and still be in the original .455 caliber to fetch that sort of price. Otherwise, I got one heck of a deal. I don't know where you'd find ones like mine; I just got lucky when a friend called to share his excitement at acquiring it, and I managed to offer him something he wanted more. Most of the threads I've read value these shooter-grade Hand Ejectors at no more than $600--usually quite a bit less.

"I used Clean Shot (American Pioneer) in 45acp in a converted Webley MkIII and still load 455 in a MkVI"

What a coincidence! My own experience making ersatz .455 Webley Mark I ammunition out of .45 Auto Rim and black powder (I have a .45 ACP converted Mark I) is what really gave me the idea to try black powder. I was dissatisfied with the load suggestions for smokeless, and I was uncomfortable shooting even light smokeless in a revolver originally designed for black powder anyway. 18 grns. of FFF goex behind a 265 grain hollow based Webley bullet I cast gives me a low pressure and about 650 f.p.s.. My lube is mostly beeswax and olive oil with just a touch of Ballistol.
And fouling, while nasty, doesn't tie up the revolver. But that is with only 18 grains of FFF, and with a revolver specifically designed for back powder. I don't know how well the Hand Ejector's cylinder mechanism would tolerate the heavier fouling I'd get from full .45 Colt Blackpowder loads.

"Then I would put a light rust preventive coating of Ballistol on the gun and also work some down inside the mechanism."

+1 on the Ballistol. In fact, I use only "moose milk" (Ballistol and water) to clean my black powder firearms followed by a heavy lubrication with pure Ballistol. But your cleaning solution is probably much cheaper. I'm going to try it out.

I really appreciate all the responses. I'll give this a try and post the results.

 

[johncantiusgarand]

Success!

Well, I fired my Hand Ejector today with some handloaded .45 Colt loads. These weren't my favorite loads, having run out of FFF and having to substitute FF. My last experience with this yielded velocities almost 200 f.p.s. slower than the same charge of FFF, and today was no exception. Velocities with 40 grains FF Goex behind a 255 gr. 454190 yielded between 770 and 800 f.p.s. (previous attempts with my 7.5 inch barreled SAA with FFF yielded a little over 1000 f.p.s.).

Regardless, this revolver shot to point of aim. At 7 paces off-hand, I got a ragged hole. At 15 paces, I could keep every shot with 4 inches, but I know I could do better if it was rested. Recoil was very heavy. Accuracy was maintained through 50 rounds. And best of all, the revolver stayed smooth throughout. In fact, function was less affected by black powder fouling than with my Colt SAA. The accompanying photos show the revolver right before the shoot and then a few "after" photos to show the extent of fouling. It wasn't bad at all, and the cylinder spun freely.

I tried to video the event, but my camera wasn't cooperating. I did, however, manage to record one shot, and I posted it to Youtube. If you watch it over and over, you can see where my shots had been going--right into the center.

So if you've ever wondered if these old hand ejectors would work well with black powder, wonder no more. This thing handled it better than my single actions do!

101_0388.MP4 - YouTube

P.S. I just noticed what I had written on the box of cartridges. It wasn't Goex FF I'd used after-all, it was Goex "Cartridge Grade". That stuff has been a real disappointment. I need to restock up with FFF (thinking of trying KIK next time), but I don't have $300 sitting idle. I wish I could find real BP locally instead of having to order 25 pounds at a time just to make the price-per-pound reasonable.