Bother With Copper Fouling?

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otisrush

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I have a Sport I. I use it for range plinking. It's probably got 4,000 rounds down it. I also, like a half a gazilion other folks, got a Teslong bore scope a number of months back.

There's a good amount of copper in the barrel. I'm a MAJOR believer in "If it ain't broke don't fix it." That being said....if certain things aren't done before they "break" then the break can be worse than the prevention.

It's still shooting well. I'm trying to decide how aggressively to pursue getting this copper out. On the one hand things like borescopes can create an obsession with cleanliness that could be detrimental or a waste of time. But on the other hand, is letting it go going to lead to premature barrel demise?

Of all my guns this is the most utilitarian. I totally get the concept that the barrel is a wear item. I understand it'll wear out at some point and when that happens I'll be happy because it'll be a milestone I had so much fun with it. That being said, I don't want to be wasteful and cause that date to happen sooner than it needs to.

I've given it a number of good soakings and scrubbings using Boretek Eliminator - my favorite product that I use in my other guns. I'm very much leaning toward letting it go as is, being thorough on subsequent cleanings, and letting the barrel progress however it does.

What are others doing? Do you aggressively pursue getting copper out of your (low end) ARs?

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If you've been using Eliminator and bronze brushes regularly and your gun is shooting satisfactorily from an accuracy perspective , you're probably fine. If your accuracy begins to suffer, you may want to use a stronger copper solvent like Bore Tech copper remover, Wipe Out/ Patch Out, Montana Extreme, etc. Just remember it's not necessary to remove every trace of copper fouling to keep your gun shooting well.

A "good amount", as you describe it, is a relative term that may be interpreted differently by different people. And you're right about "obsessive"; we have to many of those already.
 
If your current bore cleaner/copper solvent is still leaving copper fouling, use a different solvent. From doing high volume prairie dog shoots I have found that certain copper fouling will be removed by different solvents. Don't be surprised if one solvent stops removing fouling and when you change solvents you find that you are again making progress and getting more copper fouling out. I have about 4 different solvents that I use and I will switch around until no more evidence of fouling shows on the patches. Differing chemical compositions of jacket material will respond differently to different solvents. Even though I believe in cleaning my barrels well after each use, I do not use my bore scope to check my results, because I believe you can chase your tail in a never ending loop trying to get that last little bit of fouling out.
Also, remember you cannot use a copper solvent with a bronze bristle brush or you can just keep depositing dissolved bronze on your bore and you will keep getting green/blue streaks on your patches. The stronger copper solvents should be applied with nylon bristle brushes or just patches.
 
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I have found that "Wipe-Out" works very well for removing copper fouling.
 
If you're already checking your bore during the cleaning process for copper with a scope, then it's fine to use a bronze brush. They work far better than nylon brushes if you have an interest in removing fouling, not only copper fouling but carbon as well.

Some years ago, I was on a tour of the Shilen barrel shop in Ennis, TX. (The late) Mr. Shilen mentioned there was no need to remove all the copper from a bore as long as the barrel was shooting well. I've tried it both ways and my results have been inconclusive a number of times; haven't been able to tell the difference even with some pretty accurate rifles.
 
Great perspectives. And good reminder re use of nylon brush.

I think I'll "be diligent but not aggressive". As others commented - she's still shooting well. I'm new to running the scope down this particular piece so I don't have much of a comparison point. Since it is a plinker I have tended to run it to the point it gets pretty hot. I'm confident that hasn't helped.

Just a couple of days ago I had it out ringing steel and it was doing everything I asked it to do.

Thanks all!

OR
 
GI-surplus bore cleaner, usually a buck or two per pint can at the gun shows or on-line sources. Excellent solvent to remove metal fouling. Soak a patch, swab the bore a time or two, allow it to sit overnight. Then clean as normal (bore brush, solvent patches, dry patches).

I seriously doubt that any commercial source can offer the extreme level of R&D work for cleaning solvents or firearms lubricants that the US military has developed over many years. Excellent quality at very small cost.
 
I thought I'd follow up......

Nylon brush made a HUGE difference. I put three wet patches through. Then wet the nylon brush - per BoreTek's instructions - and gave it good scrub. Then after letting it sit for an hour or two, put numerous dry patches through.

The copper is basically completely gone.

Thanks all!

OR
 
Shoot it until accuracy noticeably degrades. Some barrels shoot better with copper fouling, others will start to fall off the table. Let the paper tell the story and stop worrying about it.
 
How accurately is it shooting? If the groups are opening up, then it's time to scrub the copper from the bore. Keep in mind, it will take a few rounds to get the barrel re-fouled and reproduce your previous grouping. Don't think your sights have suddenly gone off zero.
 
Sorry, but I will buck the trend. When I first started NRA high power matches, I was instructed by my gunsmith that just cleaning the bore of powder and primer fouling was not enough. I was shooting both "across the course" and long-range. After every match, regardless of whether I was shooting my 03A3 NM, M1MKII, the HBAR MATCH TARGET, or the M1A, I would run Sweet's 7.62 through the bore. Now that I am shooting F class matches, where you need to have rifle and ammo capable of sub-MOA accuracy, running Sweet's through the bore is as essential.

In the course of over almost 30 years of high power competition, I have learned that there are two types of accuracy: match and hunting. Rifle match accuracy life varies by cartridge and ammo. Expect the following match accuracy life: 223 - about 5000 rounds, 7mm Magnum - about 1200 rounds, and 30 - about 3000 rounds. When a rifle that has had ammo mated for either MOA or sub-MOA accuracy can no longer maintain 1 MOA, that barrel is worn out. Using nylon coated one piece cleaning rods with brass jags and cleaning rod guides (either muzzle or chamber) has never damaged a barrel or caused excessive wear.
 
Plus 1 for the Sweets although since I started using CFE for my Sport 1. I haven't used it on it. I still use 4198 for my varmint gun so I still use it on that.
 
FWIW, I used to shoot F class. One night after a very long day and shooting 2 matches each at 600 and 1000 yards, I looked at the bore of my rifle (104 rounds by the shot log) and decided I'd cope with it the next day. I saturated the bore with Hoppe's #9 and went to bed. I may/may not have swabbed the bore before saturation.

Sometime the next day I trudged down to the bench to start the cleaning process and discovered the formerly copper colored bore was bare steel. I'd read that this works, but had rather doubted it.

Shilen isn't the only barrel maker who suggests that a certain level of fouling may help, not hurt accuracy.

The use of nylon brushes with the various copper removers are a really good idea.
 
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lrrifleman said:
Sorry, but I will buck the trend. When I first started NRA high power matches, I was instructed by my gunsmith that just cleaning the bore of powder and primer fouling was not enough. I was shooting both "across the course" and long-range. After every match, regardless of whether I was shooting my 03A3 NM, M1MKII, the HBAR MATCH TARGET, or the M1A, I would run Sweet's 7.62 through the bore. Now that I am shooting F class matches, where you need to have rifle and ammo capable of sub-MOA accuracy, running Sweet's through the bore is as essential.

In the course of over almost 30 years of high power competition, I have learned that there are two types of accuracy: match and hunting. Rifle match accuracy life varies by cartridge and ammo. Expect the following match accuracy life: 223 - about 5000 rounds, 7mm Magnum - about 1200 rounds, and 30 - about 3000 rounds. When a rifle that has had ammo mated for either MOA or sub-MOA accuracy can no longer maintain 1 MOA, that barrel is worn out. Using nylon coated one piece cleaning rods with brass jags and cleaning rod guides (either muzzle or chamber) has never damaged a barrel or caused excessive wear.
Click to expand...

Veering off course here a bit , but with something that might prove helpful to others...
My experience with accurate bore life is somewhat similar to yours. I have a New Ultra Light Arms rifle in 7x61 Sharpe & Hart, developed long before the 7mm Remington Magnum, but ballistically about the same as the Remington cartridge. I'm not in the habit of keeping track of the number of rounds fired in any gun, but I did monitor this one fairly closely.

Like other NULA rifles, I was able to get some pretty small groups on a regular basis with eight or ten different bullets and a variety of powders. At about 900 rounds, the small groups began to open, and at approximately 1200 rounds, it was barely capable of an occasional 3/4" group; most were closer to 1 1/2". I called the maker, Melvin Forbes, told him the barrel was worn out and he immediately asked if I had a thousand rounds through it. When I gave him the numbers, he told me about a thousand accurate rounds was what one could expect from any 7mm magnum.

Mr. Forbes just put the third barrel on it and it will likely be the last. I enjoy load development, trying lots of components, but it is hard on barrels. I've had a NULA .308 for more than ten years and it's seen lots of shooting, but to estimate the number of rounds would be tough. However, I'm sure it's well over two thousand rounds and it's shown no loss in accuracy.
 
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