British S&W Sales

[Texas Star]

On another board that caters to collectors, I saw a post that said that some London gun dealer's records show many sales of Colt products during the time between the World Wars, but very few S&W's. It noted that Colt was far more popular in Britain.

I think that may be true. I saw quite a few British-sold Colts when I frequented a shop here that once sold many foreign guns. Not many S&W's. Plenty of Webleys, of course.

Did S&W have many British sales from 1920-1940? Only one dealer's records were cited, and some may have sold more.

Colt had an aggressive UK sales program long before S&W did, and that may partially account for the numbers sold there. But I'm guessing that anyone qualified to buy a handgun could get an S&W that he wanted, even if it had to be ordered.

Keep in mind that these would be private sales, not govt. orders. We do know that Walter Winans was fond of S&W's before WWI and praised them for their accuracy in his shooting achievements.

 

[zywina]

Very interesting topic, here in Canada we seem to have a few guns been brought over by Englishmen when immigrating to Canada, but I have not really seen many S&W's with British proof marks , seems other than 455 MK 2's there is really a small handfull of commercial Smiths compared to Colts in this here country. Just my prospective in collecting Colts and S&W's in the last 10 years , Mery X-mas, dale in Canada!

 

[Texas Star]

Very interesting topic, here in Canada we seem to have a few guns been brought over by Englishmen when immigrating to Canada, but I have not really seen many S&W's with British proof marks , seems other than 455 MK 2's there is really a small handfull of commercial Smiths compared to Colts in this here country. Just my prospective in collecting Colts and S&W's in the last 10 years , Mery X-mas, dale in Canada!

Dale-

Merry Christmas, and thanks, eh?

Oh: Robert C. Ruark's article on the Mau-Mau terrorists in, "Life" in the early 1950's showed a Kenya settler with an S&W M&P beside him in the bathtub, and I saw another in a book about white hunters. Some S&W's were being used.

 

[glowe]

I have heard that around the turn of the century into the 1930's, there were as many sales of S&Ws to foreign countries as in the U.S., so many Smith's should have went to England and other European countries. There were also brisk sales to South America. Roy Jinks has commented to me that there were large sales of the Model of 1891 SA and assumed the Perfected abroad, accounting for the relative rarity of these models on the current U.S. collectors market.

It would be interesting to see what the numbers were for foreign country sales of various models through the early years of the 20th century, but am certain it would be a monumental task. Besides, so many Smith's went through distributors and those would be impossible to track accurately. I wonder if U.S. distributors could have sold directly to individuals and gun shops in the England, without using the English distributors?? I am sure that in the early 1900s, you could have guns mailed to your home or business from the U.S., in most foreign countries, without restriction.

If I remember correctly, Colt actually had an office and distribution in London, but cannot remember where I read this. As far as I know, S&W never had an office in England.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

If I remember correctly, Colt actually had an office and distribution in London, but cannot remember where I read this. As far as I know, S&W never had an office in England.

Samuel Colt was an agressive sales and pitch man. He routinely worked the European market, Great Britain among many others. He pandered to the elite, royalty and government officials of many European states and principalities. Even in Japan and the far east. Colt did indeed have offices in London. That fact probably could be cited in any one of the many books written about Colt firearms, those authored by Servin, Haven & Belden, R.L. Wilson and possibly others. I've read it too, just can't remember which of those it was. A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthurs Court....literally.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[bettis1]

Sam Colt had a long relationship with England. Great Britain granted him his first revolver patent in 1835 and he had a prominent display at The Great Exhibition in 1851 that was officially opened by Queen Victoria. The best information on the Colt/England story can be found in Colonel Colt London by Joseph G. Rosa.

Bob

 

[bettis1]

Texas Star,

I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to but I have what Roy has described as "a Special Model .38 Hand Ejector Military & Police Model of 1905, Fourth Change which was manufactured for the British Commonwealth nations between 1940 and 1945."

It is a pre-Victory (702xxx) that delivered to the British Purchasing Commission, New York, NY, on Sept. 16, 1940 and is a 6" blue, .38/200, with butt swivel and checkered grips. My gun is in pristine shape with no evidence of British markings.

According to Roy, "Smith & Wesson manufactured a total of 571,629 of these revolvers for the British Commonwealth countries. They were supplied in the following manner - between June 1940 and December 1940, a total of 112,854 were sold directly to the British Purchasing Commission; between February 1940 and June 1941, 21,347 were sold to the Union of South Africa; between June 1940 and December 1941, 45,328 were sold to Canada. In April 1941, 8,000 were sold to Australia. The remaining 384,100 shipped between 1941 and the end of World WarII were supplied by the U. S. Army Ordinance through the Lend Lease program to Britain for distribution."

The British Government ordered 20,000 units with the six inch barrel in June, 1940 and my gun is from that group.

Bob

 

[Texas Star]

Texas Star,

I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to but I have what Roy has described as "a Special Model .38 Hand Ejector Military & Police Model of 1905, Fourth Change which was manufactured for the British Commonwealth nations between 1940 and 1945."

It is a pre-Victory (702xxx) that delivered to the British Purchasing Commission, New York, NY, on Sept. 16, 1940 and is a 6" blue, .38/200, with butt swivel and checkered grips. My gun is in pristine shape with no evidence of British markings.

According to Roy, "Smith & Wesson manufactured a total of 571,629 of these revolvers for the British Commonwealth countries. They were supplied in the following manner - between June 1940 and December 1940, a total of 112,854 were sold directly to the British Purchasing Commission; between February 1940 and June 1941, 21,347 were sold to the Union of South Africa; between June 1940 and December 1941, 45,328 were sold to Canada. In April 1941, 8,000 were sold to Australia. The remaining 384,100 shipped between 1941 and the end of World WarII were supplied by the U. S. Army Ordinance through the Lend Lease program to Britain for distribution."

The British Government ordered 20,000 units with the six inch barrel in June, 1940 and my gun is from that group.

Bob

Bob-

Hi! No, the guns you mean were obviously made for military use in WW 2. My brother once had one of those six-inch .38-200's.

What I was asking about was commercial sales in the UK between WW I and WW II.

The post on the other board said that Colt closed its London agency in 1913, but that several UK distributors/retailers carried Colts, some engraved with their names. Besides Wilkinson Sword, Fraser of Edinburgh had them, sometimes cased for/by the retailer.

I was just wondering how S&W fared by comparison. From what I can tell, they had fewer sales, but probably more than the post on Gunboards inferred.

In more recent years, before the gun ban of 1997, I saw many ads for S&W products in UK gun magazines. Also in German magazines.

 

[glowe]

I hate to think it, but do you suppose that many fine old S&Ws were turned in, chopped up or made unshootable like so many other weapons in the UK? Also, it could be that many were "disposed of" in Canada as well after passage of restrictive gun laws there.

 

[Texas Star]

I hate to think it, but do you suppose that many fine old S&Ws were turned in, chopped up or made unshootable like so many other weapons in the UK? Also, it could be that many were "disposed of" in Canada as well after passage of restrictive gun laws there.

Oh, yeah! Some were confiscated in 1940 and never returned to owners, and many sent as contributions by US citizens were dumped at sea or chopped up.

Others made it here as govt. sales, incuding many Lend-Lease and other WW II guns. That included Colt, Webley, Enfield, and S&W products. Some of the older ones had officers' names engraved on them, and some were cased.

There used to be a store here called Jackson Arms that sold some nice examples. Not to be confused with the present Jackson Armory, which is in the same general part of town, and they, too, have some nice stuff.

 

[bettis1]

Texas Star,

Good memories of Red & Elsie at Jackson's...great folks and much missed in the collecting community.

Bob

 

[AlanDavid]

The sole agent in the UK for S&W from the 1890's up to about WW1 was the gunmaker Charles Osborne who had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. The London shop was closed in 1928 and Chas Osborne seems to have ceased making shotguns at this time. I am not aware of any records for the firm. Parker Hale became the S&W agent after WW2, possibly in the 1950's. I do not know who the agent was in the 1930's.

Colt along with Winchester had a strong precents in the UK being represented by the London Armoury Company who operated from 31 Bury Street, St James, London, from just before WW1 until around 1939. The hayday for S&W in the UK excluding military sales was private purchases by officers in WW1.

David Penn of the Imperial War Museum gave a talk to the SWCA some years ago and was of the opinion that Colt eclipsed S&W for sales by some margin.

Regards
AlanD
Sydney

 

[Mike.45]

I hate to think it, but do you suppose that many fine old S&Ws were turned in, chopped up or made unshootable like so many other weapons in the UK?

In 1997 I personally handed in six S&W revolvers and one auto, all of them newish as compared to rare old stuff. They were a 586, 686, and four Mod 29s / 629s which sadly included a Horton Special. The auto was a 4516.

I am glad to say that I have now found a way to legally own S&W's again in the UK and now have a .455 Mk2 and a .38/200 Victory Model that was issued to an RAF pilot. It got shot down with him twice during the war, once in a Hurricane by the Germans in North Africa and once in a Mk 5 Spitfire by a rear B29 gunner in Borneo...

The pilot is thankfully still alive and is still awaiting the apology from that USAF gunner....

 

[Waidmann]

From what research I've seen on handgun ownership in the U.K. you have not in modern times seen the demographics to support big numbers.
As for Africa I have read several professional hunter types poo-hoo handguns as a virtually useless toy carried by a few American hunters who failed to understand the necessity of real killing power. Obviously during the transitional and post colonial years there must have been some rethinking. Recall though that the Brits tended to practice "dual mandate" sort of separate but equal. They could not have had a 'white only" approach by then. In fact they in an attempt to deny reloading components outlawed private ownership of .45 caliber rifles and ammunition including fine doubles and express cartridges.

Brits and guns and problems go back to at least Lexington and Concord.

 

[Leroy Thompson]

I have some British retailer marked S&Ws in my collection though more Colts. The most common S&W model that I have seen with retailer marks is the Lemon Squeezer and the most common retailer is Cogswell & Harrison, which also converted 38-200 revolvers to .38 Special and sold them with retailer markings.