C&R question on buying handguns across state lines

[wheelgun28]

This came up and I have a felling about the answer but I have asked around and get different views. I have read the laws in the reference manual and I can only find one thing that seems to apply but its not clear.

Heres the scenario, you are at a gun show and want to buy a C&R Handgun (no doubt its a C&R), you have your C&R, the dealer has an FFL from out of the state you are in (a 3rd state). So far we are legal, I think? Lets add in that the transaction is in a state like NY (oh the horror, I know). Now can you take that gun and bring it home. NYS law is that you need to have a permit to have a handgun.

Now if a C&R cannot possess the gun, how can the seller, out of state ffl possess the gun?

The way I see the C&R law is that if the gun is C&R the holder has the same legal standing as any other ffl as long as they are not in business?

However I see written into the federal laws is that they do not override state law. Also written in the law is that C&Rs are made for purchasing firearms across state lines.

I tend to error towards safety and would have it shipped to me rather than physically possess it in a state like NY.

Would safe passage rules apply, locked in the trunk etc?

Anyone know what the correct answer is?

Lawyers are expensive, shipping is cheap

 

[Thiokol]

State laws vary. To be safe, check them on the CD/ROM that you receive every year from the ATF. In the vast majority of states, you can legally take possession of a C&R handgun with your C&R license.

As for a federal law not overriding a state law, that would depend on the state law. Typically, a state can't enact a law that is less stringent than a federal law. However, a state can enact a law that is stricter than a federal law. A good example of that would be in my wonderful home state of Illinois where, despite being legal in most other states, fully automatic weapons in the hands of civilians is illegal.

 

[2152hq]

If the 3rd State is NY,,,then neither the sellers FFL nor your C&R are valid for possession of a handgun in NY State (assuming both FFL seller and C&R buyer are from other states).

I know it's done all the time,,out of state dealers (FFL) w/handguns for sale at shows in NY State,,but their FFL does not cover them for the possession nor the sale of any handgun in NY State.

The C&R license only of either a NYS resident or someone from out of state, is insufficient to transfer a handgun to legally in NYS.
I've seen FFL's do it (to out of state FFL's and C&R's),,but it isn't legal.
Those out of state folks have no legal possession of the handgun while in NYS w/o a NYS pistol Permit,,or a NYS Dealer License.

A NYS Dealer License allows that person to buy and sell handguns in NYState. It is a separate license from their FFL. w/3 yr renewal.

The NYS Dealer License is only valid for the 'licensed premises' printed on the license copy iteself. There is no added coverage for also doing business @ gunshows as there is with the FFL to do business at.
Not legal to travel within the State with the guns on your dealer license either.
So far that has been given a pass by the King and Courts of NY,, AFAIK and business goes on at shows by NYS Licensed dealers.
One has to wonder though who'd be the next sting target..



Safe & legal way as far as a NYS senario goes is to have the gun shipped to you.

 

[Faulkner]

Man, am I glad I live in a part of the country that is still mostly free.

 

[chud333]

Man, am I glad I live in a part of the country that is still mostly free.

Boy i heard that my friend. Can't imagine being in this great
hobby of shooting sports/collecting guns and having to try
to wrangle through all the laws of living in a state of
nothing more than "confusion and chaos".



chuck

 

[thndrchiken]

As I understand it if it's on the C&R list it doesn't matter you can buy it with your Class III. Worst case you may have to have it shipped to you. I was applying for my class III a few years back and got a call from the local ATF agent handling the application and was Advised that the PRNJ views a class III no differently than a class I. Told him to scrap the application and refund my fee, ain't worth the hassle at that point.

 

[wheelgun28]

Thank you!

This is sort of inline with the way I was thinking, well actually worse

The bottom line is that in NYS you cannot possess a handgun unless you have a NYS permit and have that gun listed on it or you are a FFL in NYS but not a 03.

Its amazing that how many mistakes are made that can lead to trouble down the road. Ive seen where NYS residents buy C&R handguns out of state and simply bring them home. Yet NYS law is they need to X-fer through an 01 and be put on a permit. It gets worse, I am sure.

I hear rumors of the NY Sullivan law being challenged in the future, I do wonder it it will stand.

Thanks for your insight

If the 3rd State is NY,,,then neither the sellers FFL nor your C&R are valid for possession of a handgun in NY State (assuming both FFL seller and C&R buyer are from other states).

I know it's done all the time,,out of state dealers (FFL) w/handguns for sale at shows in NY State,,but their FFL does not cover them for the possession nor the sale of any handgun in NY State.

The C&R license only of either a NYS resident or someone from out of state, is insufficient to transfer a handgun to legally in NYS.
I've seen FFL's do it (to out of state FFL's and C&R's),,but it isn't legal.
Those out of state folks have no legal possession of the handgun while in NYS w/o a NYS pistol Permit,,or a NYS Dealer License.

A NYS Dealer License allows that person to buy and sell handguns in NYState. It is a separate license from their FFL. w/3 yr renewal.

The NYS Dealer License is only valid for the 'licensed premises' printed on the license copy iteself. There is no added coverage for also doing business @ gunshows as there is with the FFL to do business at.
Not legal to travel within the State with the guns on your dealer license either.
So far that has been given a pass by the King and Courts of NY,, AFAIK and business goes on at shows by NYS Licensed dealers.
One has to wonder though who'd be the next sting target..



Safe & legal way as far as a NYS senario goes is to have the gun shipped to you.

 

[2152hq]

"....unless you have a NYS permit and have that gun listed on it or you are a FFL in NYS but not a 03."

Add the need to have the separate NYS issued Dealers License in addition to the FFL in NY to be able to buy/sell & possess those handguns.

Most Countys in NYS won't issue a NYS Dealer License unless you already have an 01FFL. Both are considered a 'Dealer License' and assume that you are in the business.
A few Countys will issue a NYS Dealers License to C&R 03FFL holders in NYS.
Seems contrary, but nothing in this makes much sense.

But in neither case does it actually allows transport of those firearms outside of the Licensed Premises.,,like gunshows, buying out of state and transporting it back to you business premises.
....Not that it isn't done all the time though.

The NYS Dealer License (and the NYS Gunsmith License,,oh yes,, there's a separate one for that too if you want to repair handguns) mandate that any handgun coming into NYS from another State be shipped into NYS by an FFL. No accepting sales, transfers, or even repairs from private citizens of the USA even with proper ID, ect.
That's really good for business, especially the gunsmith side.

These laws are some of the most confusing and confounding, it's no wonder well meaning folks get in trouble trying to follow them.
Of course the local thug could care less about them.
>
<
A trashing of the Sullivan Law would of course be welcome, but I doubt it will happen. Too many politicians lean on such laws to get themselves elected/re-elected. Staying in office is their goal in life.

People are so freaked out at the sight of a firearm these days, any talk of loosening the restrictions would be certain defeat for a candidate IMHO.
We used to get calls for 'men w/guns in a field' on opening day of deer season.
Calls for a 'susp man w/a gun by a house'---a resident putting his cased shotgun into his vehicle to go hunting or to the range.
Worse now I'm sure.

You'd have to change the general populations (voters) mind set before any politician would move on the issue. As soon as they see votes,,they're on your side..

..and don't think such heavy gun regulation can't happen anywhere. Alot of these liberal clowns with these ideals & ideas have since retired to places where it's warmer and/or more open.
But they like to still meddle in politics,,town & village boards, local mayors offices, even State offices if they don't have to do much.
They can do alot of damage quickly.
>
>
Yes buy/sell of Title I firearms can be done with some of the other classes of FFL.
Many times Pawn Shops will do transfers and they have an 02FFL.
Manufacturers (I) also and they have an 07FFL I believe.
There are others as mentioned.

Good luck with your purchase. At least we still can,,sort of,,

 

[PA Reb]

So, what y'all are telling me is that its illegal for me to travel though the state of New York while in possession of a revolver that I will be using in another state legally for hunting? If so, I thought someone here said at one time or another that Federal law allows for interstate transportation as long as the gun is stored or, better yet, locked in a case in a portion of the vehicle that is inaccessable immdeiately. Which is it?

The picture below is courtesy of whoever it was that posted it originally.

 

[NKJ nut]

TYPE 03

As I understand it if it's on the C&R list it doesn't matter you can buy it with your Class III. Worst case you may have to have it shipped to you. I was applying for my class III a few years back and got a call from the local ATF agent handling the application and was Advised that the PRNJ views a class III no differently than a class I. Told him to scrap the application and refund my fee, ain't worth the hassle at that point.

Not Class 3 or III. An O3 FFL is a license to collect Curio & Relics. An 01 FFL is to deal in firearms. A Class III is a type of taxpayer actually, one who is an 01 FFL holder who also has a Special Occupational Tax stamp for dealing in Title II weapons regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

If NJ actually views a Type 03 FFL the same as a Type 01 (as you said they did) then an 03 (C&R) holder would be treated the same as an 01 FFL (firearms dealer) in this respect.

Both are FFL's, but only one is a license to engage in the firearms business. In some respects they are the same but not in all. Always check local and state laws. States can legally enact laws MORE restrictive than federal law but they can't enact less stringent laws than the feds; without those laws being null and void.

 

[2152hq]

Re; Traveling thru NY w/a handgun,,

The OP's question concerned an 01FFL and a C&R holder,,both from States other than NY,,,meeting inside NYS for the sale and transfer of a handgun.
That activity is not covered under the FOPAct.

Also, the first sentence of the Interstate Transportation of Firearms provision : "Not withstanding any other provisions of any law or rule.....ect"

You'd think that makes a blanket statement that the FOPAct trumps all State and Local law and regulation. But it is apparently open to interpretation by the Court(s) as to which State & Local laws are in play.

Arrests have been made of people traveling thru NYS and NJ by air that have found themselves standed at one of the airports in those states. An unscheduled overnite stay leaves them with their baggage (with their handgun inside) at a hotel with them.
When they go to check in the next day for their new flight,,they declare the handgun (as they had done in their home state). At that point they were arrested for unlicensed possession of a handgun in NY (NJ).

The courts have sided with the prosecution in some of these types of arrests..

What the local L/E may consider a necessary stop while in NYS and what is not, may make the difference between arrest and loosing the firearm,,or not.
Most times the arrest is made and 'let the courts figure it out' is the way things go.

..But I really doubt coming into the state (NY) for the expressed purpose of going to a gunshow is not 'passing thru the State'.
Just the fact that the gun is now in the persons hands and no longer 'inaccessable from the passengers compartment or locked container of the vehicle" leaves you little ground to stand on.

Handguns are controlled nearly as tightly as prescrip drugs here it would seem.
With all that,,of course there's no problems here either.

 

[ladder13]

I'm so cornfused , can't wait to move.

 

[wheelgun28]

As I interpret the law ( I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on the internet ) federally speaking a 03 is the same as an 01 but it has two limitations on it. They are, the guns but meets the guidelines to be a C&R and you cannot be in business to deal in firearms.

I have read some crazy interpretations of these two laws. Everything from it must be on the C&R list ONLY. Also things like you cannot sell a C&R gun for a profit, you can only sell one a year. Yet all of these things are wrong. I read a standard interpretation on reselling with a C&R I was quite surprised on how loose it is. An example is that some one sells you 3 Garands, you buy all three, you find the best one and add it to your collection, then sell the others and maybe even one that you had, this is advancing you collection, not dealing. Even if you got the rifles for $50 each and sold them for $1000 each.

You do still however need to keep a log and are open for inspection by the BATF. Rates of inspection of 03s are very low and something needs to have triggered it.

State laws do vary on these things most state do allow long gun sale on C&Rs, though some guns may not be legal in certain states. You must know your local laws.

As I understand it if it's on the C&R list it doesn't matter you can buy it with your Class III. Worst case you may have to have it shipped to you. I was applying for my class III a few years back and got a call from the local ATF agent handling the application and was Advised that the PRNJ views a class III no differently than a class I. Told him to scrap the application and refund my fee, ain't worth the hassle at that point.

 

[wheelgun28]

I'm so cornfused , can't wait to move.

Just get on I-84 east or west it wont matter it will get better

 

[ladder13]

Just get on I-84 east or west it wont matter it will get better

More like South. No blue high tax states for me.

 

[wheelgun28]

Well heres another good NYS question...

Handling handguns in NY, lets say you go to Joe's Gunarama and want to see that nice Registered Magnum that just came in. The clerk is supposed to ask to see your NYS permit, if you dont have it you cannot touch it.

This is what I was always taught. I see lots of folks fondling handguns at stores and shows, by either out of state or unlicensed people.

Hows this supposed to work?

 

[ladder13]

Well heres another good NYS question...

Handling handguns in NY, lets say you go to Joe's Gunarama and want to see that nice Registered Magnum that just came in. The clerk is supposed to ask to see your NYS permit, if you dont have it you cannot touch it.

This is what I was always taught. I see lots of folks fondling handguns at stores and shows, by either out of state or unlicensed people.

Hows this supposed to work?

That's the answer, though very rarely will any dealer ask you for a NYS license. I think I've taken out my license once in the last 30 years.
Some may ask for your license if they have visions of a certain big city mayor in their head.

 

[2152hq]

A shop I worked in, a very large GS, used to have a policy of "try it before you buy it".
They did that for years starting in the early 60's.
If you wanted to try out a pistol,,they gave you a handful of rounds, you went out on the back range and shot the gun.
New or used,,didn't matter. (So much for unfired except for factory proofing,ect)

Anyway, for a long time, they didn't bother to even ask if you had a NYS P/P.
Then in the 90's they started asking for such. Then the NYSP informed them that no one was to take a handgun from the premises unless it was on that persons NYS Permit/Dealer/Gunsmith license.
Handleing the hardware still required the NYS P/P to be produced.

That causes a problem w/ permit applicants,,they have no permit as yet,, but the application is made such that a handgun is to be bought and paid for in full and listed on the appl.
Some countys have sidestepped the necessity of purchasing a handgun to apply for a permit,,but many still don't.
Some Dealers used to have a box full of 'Permit Gitters'.
Cheap top breaks of various makes that cost next to nothing. An applicant could buy and pay in full (cheap!) and use the gun as the one on the application.
I takes up to 6 months and more to get the permit. Applicants didn't want to tie up full payment for that long, dealers don't want to lay-a-way for that long and then have the appli come back and say they didn't get the permit.


The only time I can think of that I was asked to see my Permit was by a somewhat strange sort in my estimation.
He is an 01FFL and also a NYS Dealer license holder. Sets up at local shows.
I showed him my FFL and NYS Dealer license,,he said he could not allow me to handle any handgun,,cause I didn't have a NYS Permit.
(I do have a personal NYS Permit),,but at that point I asked why the NYS Dealer & Gunsmith licenses weren't sufficient.
He said that I needed to have a 'Permit'.
The Dealer and the Gunsmith license are just forms of a NYS Pistol Permit. He knows that, he applied and got one...(Lord knows how..)

See how easy it is to do business here..

 

[wheelgun28]

Thats funny!!

Now as I understand it cops can buy guns and takem with a badge. No permit listing stuff. I think they were supposed do something with the paper work but...

I know two stories about this. Oh one takes place in the early 1970s. This guy has a badge and ID legit, buys a neat lil colt auto. Pays for it, gives the store the badge and goes home with a neat little gun. Years later turns in the badge but still has the gun, not on the permit and was left in the safe since...

Or more recent guy has a proper NYS PP, buys guns but doesnt like waiting for the permit listing process. So he buys a "Times Square" special fake badge. I think it said "Crime Scene Investigator" on but looked NYPD. The gun store gives him several guns over a period of time. The guy is a regular at the store. Well other NYPD cops come to the store to check stuff out and BS. The store guy asks the officer about the "CSI" unit, well NYPD didn't have a unit with that exact name, nor does it put such a thing on it badges.

This causes a excrement storm, the cop takes the guys name, runs it to find his MOS, not found. He tells his Sargent, he gets the DTs involved...

In the end the fake badge guy gets in trouble has his house searched, charged with impersonating an officer and more, all for nothing.

 

[ladder13]

Or more recent guy has a proper NYS PP, buys guns but doesnt like waiting for the permit listing process. So he buys a "Times Square" special fake badge. I think it said "Crime Scene Investigator" on but looked NYPD. The gun store gives him several guns over a period of time. The guy is a regular at the store. Well other NYPD cops come to the store to check stuff out and BS. The store guy asks the officer about the "CSI" unit, well NYPD didn't have a unit with that exact name, nor does it put such a thing on it badges.

This causes a excrement storm, the cop takes the guys name, runs it to find his MOS, not found. He tells his Sargent, he gets the DTs involved...

In the end the fake badge guy gets in trouble has his house searched, charged with impersonating an officer and more, all for nothing.

That's "Danny", I know that guy. He was buying guns 2 and 3 at a time, not that there's anything wrong with legally buying them. He's, shall we say, no longer buying guns with his fake ID.
Last I heard, no gun charges are being brought, the DA just wants to know where the badge came from. Danny said he got it over the internet. Danny is a shrink and claimed to be an NYPD doctor.