Calling all 38/44 HS reloaders, I need your help!

[Peter M. Eick]

I have this same thread for the original ammo running in the pre-numbered section. Here I would like to get your reload experience and loads and chrono data.

I am looking to establish a thread to document what we know and suspect about 38/44 ammo for the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.

My interest is to collect and document what we know about the actual ballistics and performance of the 38/44 High Speed round and all of its derivations from the Super Police to the High Speed.

I ask that if you have pictures of the boxes, ammo, ballistic data or information relating to the actual ammo that you help us all out by posting it here.

My motivation is I have accumulated a fair amount now of 38/44 ammo from 110 grn "highway patrolman" to 200 grn "super police" rounds and I intend on shooting most of it over a chrono to document its performance in a 4" 5" and 6.5" Heavy Dutys.

Before I blow many hundreds of dollars worth of vintage ammo(yes I will keep a few samples and the boxes), I want to establish what the ballistics should be for each of the types of ammo.

I have books of manuals from the "old days" that list many loads that I intend to eventually load them all up and chrono them out. My goal is to collect this information for reference sake of your experience and load data.

Remember this is for 38/44 High Speed ammo only. The data that is in this thread is not meant for small frame or medium frame 38 specials, but may be used in some 357 magnums.

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have this same thread for the original ammo running in the pre-numbered section. Here I would like to get your reload experience and loads and chrono data.

I am looking to establish a thread to document what we know and suspect about 38/44 ammo for the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman.

My interest is to collect and document what we know about the actual ballistics and performance of the 38/44 High Speed round and all of its derivations from the Super Police to the High Speed.

I ask that if you have pictures of the boxes, ammo, ballistic data or information relating to the actual ammo that you help us all out by posting it here.

My motivation is I have accumulated a fair amount now of 38/44 ammo from 110 grn "highway patrolman" to 200 grn "super police" rounds and I intend on shooting most of it over a chrono to document its performance in a 4" 5" and 6.5" Heavy Dutys.

Before I blow many hundreds of dollars worth of vintage ammo(yes I will keep a few samples and the boxes), I want to establish what the ballistics should be for each of the types of ammo.

I have books of manuals from the "old days" that list many loads that I intend to eventually load them all up and chrono them out. My goal is to collect this information for reference sake of your experience and load data.

Remember this is for 38/44 High Speed ammo only. The data that is in this thread is not meant for small frame or medium frame 38 specials, but may be used in some 357 magnums.

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[Paul5388]

Peter,

The 1973 Gun Digest lists these factory loads:
W-W, R-P & Federal
158 gr lead 1090 fps 425 ME 6" $7.65/50
Super Vel .38 Special Int.
158 gr Lead 1110 fps 439 ME 6" $6.15/20

The Handloader's Digest, 6th Edition lists the same information.

The 1971 Gun Digest has the same information, but the price was less.

The 1965 Shooter's Bible lists this:
150 gr Lubaloy or Met. Pt. 1065 fps 377 ME 5"

The same loads as the 1965 Shooter's Bible were listed in the 1980 Gun Digest, but they used a 6" barrel.

That's about all of the older books I have that list what would be .38/44 loads.

Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide for Handloading" would list handloads, but I don't know right offhand if it has factory loads.

 

[Alk8944]

Peter,

The only reference I have for the .38-44 is a 1844 "Gun Digest" It shows velocity for the 158 RNL @ 1115 FPS.

You have two different things confused, a cartridge and a load. The designation "Super Police" refers to three different things. The .38-44 cartridge, The 200 gr .38 S&W load, and the 200 gr .38 Special load. Admittedly this has led to much confusion to many. The 200 gr .38 Special "Super Police" loading is not a .38-44 load, but rather a standard pressure load useable in any .38 Special revolver.

To save you a little trouble I have chronographed some original .38 Spl 200 gr Super Police. These are Winchester late 60s/early 70s in the yellow box which I have had since sometime in the 1970s. These were shot over an Oehler 35P, 4' screen spacing at a distance to the start screen of 10'. Published velocity was 725 fps. As is typical the chronograph results were somewhat lower. My results, for two 5 shot strings, not corrected to the muzzle, were 635 and 621 fps from a 5" M&P. These were shot in 1995, temp not noted, but probably somewhere in the 80 degree range. Not exactly a barn-burner, is it?

As I had less than a fll box and didn't want to shoot all of them this is the only time, and only barrel length, I chronographed any of these.

The only loads I recall as ever seeing advertised as .38-44 were 158 gr RNL and 150/158 gr Metal Case, which was a bullet with a lead shank and a gilding metal cap over the nose making it look like a FMJ. Can't really say that any other bullet weight would strictly qualify as a ".38-44" load. If you find anything else actually marked as such it would be interesting to see.

Here is some data I have shot. As you said, this is strictly for heavy frame .38 Spl and .357 Magnum revolvers. These were shot in a 5" Model 27 and a 1955 or so Outdoorsman so velocities will be noted for those specific guns. No recommendations are made for any of these. Also note that for 4756 loads these are lower than the Spper #8 manual data referred to as "The load", but are still probably in the 32,000 psi+ pressure range. Remember the 5" dtat if shot in a 6 1/2" would be 25-50 fps faster, typically.

5" 158 RNL 11.4 2400 1086 fps Speer swaged
6.5" 158 LSWCGC 6.4 Unique 1145 fps RCBS .38-158
6.5" 158 LSWCGC 7.1 4756 1146 fps RCBS .38-158
6" 152 LSWC 11.8 2400 1236 fps Lyman 357446
2.5" Same in Model 19 1163 fps
5" Same in Model 60-19 1211 fps

The last 3 are from Lyman #41 (? cover missing) for Heavy-frame .38 guns which would have been the .38-44 HD, Outdoorsman, Colt New Service, and Colt SAA

I have more data but much of it develps signigicantly higher velocities than was appropriate for the .38-44. None of this has been pressure tested, but I am confident most would be significantly higher than standard for both .38-44 and .357 Magnum. Even though .38-44 developed velocities 3-400 fps lower than .357 Magnum, the pressures were very similar Some believe than some .38-44 was actually higher pressure than standard for .357 Magnum as finally settled on. This is due to the reduced case capacity of the .38 Spl. case compared to .357 Magnum.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I have an old "Western Ammunition Handbook" dated 1952. In it there are loads like ALK describes.

Their K1345T I listed as "38 special Super-Police (Oilproof)inside lubricated" and consists of a 200gr bullet @ an advertised velocity of 745 and Muzzle Energy of 247ft/lbs.
They also list two other bullets @ 150gr, one metal covered, with a velocity of 1100fps each out of a 5" barrel. One is called "Super X" but I am not sure if that is a meaningful description or what.

I do know this, any time you have a 150gr + bullet traveling @ 1100fps, that should be enough for any serious social work that needs to be done! Small game for that matter too.
It also has an interesting piece of data in the book too. How many soft pine boards each bullet could penetrate! The lead 150gr @ 1100fps lists 9 while the metal point one lists 11. The 200gr had a dismal 7.5 for it's entry.

Interesting. Of course "THE LOAD" would seem to qualify for this type of 38/44 loading.

FWIW

 

[leon riverrat]

I recently had what I considered to be 38/44 level loads pressure tested by the H.P. White lab. I have been working with lil'gun in the 38 special for some time and was curious as to the pressures being produced by various loads. Two loads tested were 11 gr. of 2400 and 7.5 grains of 4756. Each of these were loaded with 161 358156 grain GC cast bullet in federal cases with federal primers. In my test S&W model 14 the 2400 load gave an average velocity of 1147fps. The 4756 load gave an average velocity of 1140fps.
The test data was conducted in an 8 inch test barrel and gave an average velocity of 1304 for the 2400 load and 1241 for the 4756 load. Average pressures were 32,623CUP for the 2400 load and 36690CUP for the 4756 load.
It is realized that pressures could be expected to be less in a revolver than in the test barrel. However,it should be noted that these data indicate pressures developed by some 38/44 level loads are well beyond the 38+p SAAMI pressure level of 20,000CUP.

 

[Paul5388]

Does that mean 13.5 gr of 2400 with a 170 gr 358429 in .38 Special brass has more pressure than 15.0 gr of 2400 with the same bullet in .357 Mag brass? I get 1270 fps MV with the .38 in a 6" M28-2 and 1420 fps MV in .357 with the same gun.

In 2004, Alliant said 15.3 gr of 2400 with a 158 gr LSWC in .357 generates 1620 fps at 34,000 psi.

 

[Hoptob]

Interesting question, Peter. Thought I'd give this thread a bump

I don't have old 38-44 loads but here are 2 loads lifted from Buffalo Bore web site. They are said to be 38 spl +P but there is a warning against firing them in "older or more fragile 38SPL" revolvers. Ballistics of these loads matches or exceeds ballistics of the 38-44 loads listed by Paul and Alk8944 above.

Originally posted at link

Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch—1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch—1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch—1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Item 20B: 125gr. Speer Uni-core (Gold Dot). This is the Low velocity version designed to expand under 800 fps. It will mushroom violently and penetrate roughly 12 inches in human flesh.

a. S&W mod 60, 2 inch—1072 fps (319 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch—1108 fps (341 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch—1180 fps (386 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch—1258 fps (439 ft. lbs.)

We don't know what powder Tim Sundles uses in these remarkable loads. Based on my limited experiments, max 3N37 loads from Finnish version of VV 2002 loading manual come quite close.

Mike

 

[leon riverrat]

Getting 1150fps from a 3-4" 38 special and staying within +P pressure limits is rather remarkable. I would be very interested in knowing more about the powder used to accomplish this. I am not familar with 3N37 powder and would like to know more.

 

[Homie]

Peter,
I believe I've posted most of this information
before in bits and pieces, but here it is all together. Hope it helps with your project!

All my chrono data is 15' instrumental.

Remington Green box (early '60s) 158 gr, INDEX 6538, box says HI-SPEED, headstamped 38 SPL HV, cataloged @ 1065 fps-
5" (pre-27)-1006 fps; 6" (M19)-1060 fps

Recent Winchester 158 gr +P, same guns-

27= 898 fps, 19= 967 fps.

The 13.5 2400/#156 load (159 gr)-1159 (27) 1204(M19).

Also for your reference, three articles that contain additional information that may be useful:

"38 Special Loads" Feb. '51 Rifleman, H.P. White data.

"Revolver barrels and Velocity", by Phil Sharpe, Dec. '50 Rifleman, 1950 Super-X ammo in the famous chopped-barrel RM #2.

"Velocity Versus Barrel Length" by Gen. Hatcher,Nov. '54 Rifleman,includes .38 Spec. HV ammo in barrel chopping a pre-M27 and a Colt .357.

Good luck!

 

[Hoptob]

Leon,

A few months back I discovered Finish edition of VV reloading manual. It had warmer 38 special loads than their English-speaking edition. Back then we had a thread about - link. It has some of my velocity data which was getting close to Buffalo Bore (and 38-44) levels, while staying withing CIP 38 special caliber limits. I am planning to do some more tests with other bullets in the spring.

Mike

 

[leon riverrat]

Mike:
Thanks for the link to information on the Vihta Vuori powders. I have not worked with them and the only folks locally here that have used them have been some bullseye shooters. They report good results in accuracy and 45 function.
I'll try to locate some of the VV powders and check them out for 38 use.
I find it hard to believe that a velocity of 1150fps can be had in a 4" barrel without exceeding +P pressure levels. Testing is the only way I know to determine pressures with specific loads. I'll let you know if I get as far as having any loads tested.

 

[Hoptob]

I find it hard to believe that a velocity of 1150fps can be had in a 4" barrel without exceeding +P pressure levels.

Leon, people had been wondering about pressure of Buffalo Bore loads... By comparison with other commercial ammo it really is hard to believe that they can squeeze so much more power. However Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore, has steadily maintained that all his loads are within the limits. Here is a link to recent post quoting Tim - link. I had said this before and will repeat here - other than not being able to reproduce Tim's loads, I have no reason to doubt his words. Maybe he is just a better reloader than I am?

Mike

 

[leon riverrat]

Mike
Buffalo Bore produces an average velocity of 1157fps in my test K-38 which is about the same as other 38/44 loads with 2400, Lil'gun and 4756. I'm willing to bet it exceeds 20,000CUP. However, until valid test data becomes available there is no point in debating the issue. That calf does not need to be re-licked.

 

[Hoptob]

Sounds good, Leon.

I am betting that pressure of this BB load is above 20,000 psi but under 23,200 psi CUP limit (if measured according CUP procedure).

Should we send a hat around to have it tested? I'll donate $50 to the cause

--Mike

 

[leon riverrat]

Mike: I'll also donate $50 just to satisfy my curosity! riverrat

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Back again. Work called so I had to travel last week. I hate setting up a thread and then disappearing for a while.

Right now my plan is to test out my chrono next week. I have not shot over the 35P in a while so I need to bench truth it with some known ammo that I chronoed to make sure everything is working right.

I will then chrono most of my stash of 38/44 ammo and then a bunch of 38/44 reloads I made up. I figure it will be a fun way of running off a day at the range.

Thanks for the help and I will keep you guys informed.

 

[Hoptob]

Please keep us posted, Peter.

BTW, what do you consider a 38/44 reload? Any 357 magnum load in 38 special cases?

Mike

 

[Peter M. Eick]

What I plan on testing is 158 lasercast SWC's.

I have loads from sr4756, unique, 2400, power pistol and longshot up to published maximums from various sources. These will establish the power level of current book or published loads. Next I will see how we are doing relative to the older ammo.

Finally, I will work up loads that duplicate the original 1150 to 1100 fps with a 158 or other published velocities. I will then do the same thing with 110 grn and 200 grn bullets just to flesh out the range of possibilities.

My premise is that with appropriate powders in a heavy duty I should be able to load up to original velocites without having a "pressure event".

And no, I am just loading it in 38 special brass. I could not see any difference in old 38/44 brass and new 38 special brass that I had. Trimming 357 mag brass seems like an odd step to me.