Casual Target Revolver Advice

[one eye joe]

I have BOTH a 4" Model 686 and a 4" 625-3 Model of 1989 in .45ACP. Each of them is a great revolver. As you reload, the cost and variety of ammo on the shelves is not an issue. If it were. I would go with the 686. Since it is not, I would suggest the 625-3. Four inch versions are hard to find, but five inch versions are plentiful. My 625-3 shoots one ragged hole groups @ 50'. It is THE MOST ACCURATE S&W revolver that I have ever owned.Your thought s on used guns are unwarranted. LNIB guns are just that, if you buy from a reputable source and examine what you are purchasing. Quality of American manufactured goods--including guns--has not risen over time, it has declined. As a result, fine old weapons are coveted by those in the know. There is NO ADVANTAGE to buying new. I have NEVER heard of anyone getting screwed by purchasing a gun (or anything else for that matter) from a fellow forum member on this forum. MAYBE it happens, but I've been around here a while and I've not witnessed it. I would not hesitate to buy from a member of our forum. It's a stellar group of people IMHO.

 

[gkitch]

new vs used

I bought four Model 27-s (Used, of course) in four different bbl lengths over the course of several years. Once I had the set, it was only natural to take them to the range and run a bunch of 38 reloads through them to see the difference in how they shot against each other. The winners?
#1. The 8 3/8". WOW! There was a huge difference in group size
#2 The 5". Nice shooting gun with a tight group.
#3 The 3.5" was just behind the fiver in groups.
#4 Surprise! The 6" was last and noticeably so.

I bought the 6" from a friend who had never shot it. When I told him that it shot worse than the others he wanted to buy it back and was sure he could fix it. Turned out that some previous owner had over opened up the forcing cone. While it does not shoot bad, it does not shoot as well as it should.

I agree that most used guns a great, but sometimes they are below par and it is sometimes something one would not detect with a basic inspection.

 

[one eye joe]

I bought the 6" from a friend who had never shot it. When I told him that it shot worse than the others he wanted to buy it back and was sure he could fix it. Turned out that some previous owner had over opened up the forcing cone. While it does not shoot bad, it does not shoot as well as it should.

I agree that most used guns a great, but sometimes they are below par and it is sometimes something one would not detect with a basic inspection.

In over 50 years of shooting and trading in handguns, I have NEVER encountered nor heard of such a thing. If you stick to NIB or LNIB weapons from REPUTABLE dealers, you will avoid these kitchen table hackers......

 

[gkitch]

In over 50 years of shooting and trading in handguns, I have NEVER encountered nor heard of such a thing. If you stick to NIB or LNIB weapons from REPUTABLE dealers, you will avoid these kitchen table hackers......

Yep, such issues are rare even if one only buys "shooter grade" guns.

Even a reputable dealer would have missed this modification of the forcing cone, as it was discovered by applying a micrometer and comparing spec only after shooting it. The groups was NOT horrible and most would assume they were off a little off, or had some substandard ammo.

 

[one eye joe]

Yep, such issues are rare even if one only buys "shooter grade" guns.

Even a reputable dealer would have missed this modification of the forcing cone, as it was discovered by applying a micrometer and comparing spec only after shooting it. The groups was NOT horrible and most would assume they were off a little off, or had some substandard ammo.

You're absolutely correct, gkitch. Nobody would have spotted that modification upon casual inspection. I have bought clean shooters often through the years. Only a handful of the handguns I own were purchased new. I especially favor clean, little used S&W stainless steel revolvers. Most anything wrong mechanically or cosmetically can generally be repaired quite easily, once discovered. I stressed NIB and LNIB weapons to the OP, as he has this unwarranted fear of pre owned weapons. Below is a trio of Mountain Guns, all purchased used.....

 

[Stainz]

ttolliver,

How do you like that 625JM? They are nice... I've been enjoying mine since I bought it, an early one, 2/05. If the grooved trigger takes DNA samples with every pull, as mine did, you can soften those 'teeth' with a strip or two of fine emery cloth. The front sight is springloaded and can be changed in seconds without tools. I prefer the HiViz/SDM fiber optic front sight - but I am a plinker. The gold beaded Patridge OEM sight is better for bullseye paper punching. The sight required is a 'Classic/DX' style with a .250" height. Try those JM grips for a while - they grow on you. I reload, too - and bought new Starline brass, .45 ACP & .45 AR alike, for mine. Starline .45 ACPs load into Ranch Products blued steel moonclips, which were $35/100 diectly from R P, easily by hand. You can't have 'too many'! I prefer the $15 Brownell's nutdriver-style demooner. The .45 ARs fit the HKS #25 (Not the 25-5!) speedloaders. Use Federal primers for 0 ftf's. Congratulations!

Stainz

 

[mg357]

Have you stopped to consider the humble .22 for casual target practice?
The ammunition is inexpensive and with proper care and maintenance a good quality .22 revolver will last a lifetime.

 

[gkitch]

You're absolutely correct, gkitch. Nobody would have spotted that modification upon casual inspection. I have bought clean shooters often through the years. Only a handful of the handguns I own were purchased new. I especially favor clean, little used S&W stainless steel revolvers. Most anything wrong mechanically or cosmetically can generally be repaired quite easily, once discovered. I stressed NIB and LNIB weapons to the OP, as he has this unwarranted fear of pre owned weapons. Below is a trio of Mountain Guns, all purchased used.....

I bought a Model 24-3 NIB when they came out in 1984. The timing was off! I was too stupid to send it back to S&W to fix it then...actually paid a gunsmith to do it. Still have the gun. NEW guns can have issues too but at least they are under warranty. Inspection of the gun is ALWAYS a good idea, NIB or 50% condition.

 

[m657]

you made a great choice....now....off to the range to find the 'best' load....target photos appreciated!!!

 

[surveyor47]

I was strongly considering buying one of the new 45ACP revolvers until I attended a recent Vintage Handgun Match. A gentleman of my acquaintence is a fantastic shot and he bought a gun that should have been beaten every other gun at the match. That gun was a 5" S&W 45ACP, essentially a copy of the Model 1917 revolver. He was using full moon clips with the same ammo he uses in his 1911. He was using a full moon clip tool to load his clips, which were not fitting into chambers easily and was fumbling when it came time to load. Perhaps this is the reason the military used half moon clips. During firing, his bullets jumped out of cases during recoil jamming the gun, evidently due to insufficient crimp. After this happened twice, he was given fresh factory ammo by the rangemaster. Even then he was fumbling with full moon clips and the gun was disqualified from the match, at which point he was loaned a 1911 to finish the match. If that is the sort of experience the military had with 45ACP revolvers, it is no wonder the military dumped them. The majority of guns on the line were S&W 10s which had no failures whatsoever. The winning gun was a S&W 10.

 

[scooter123]

Surveyor, you may want to reconsider your avoidance of the new 45 ACP revolvers. Out of the box the chambers in the cylinder in my 625 JM were so free of any trace of machining marks that I suspect that S&W is now using the ECM process to machine the cylinders. Flat out that cylinder had the chambers finished so flawlessly that they looked like a computer generated image of a cylinder.

Now, I did take the time to chamfer the chambers in mine, it only took about 1/2 hour to do the work and I have the tools to do this. Loaded clips now just fall into place and I don't even need to use the extractor to dump a clip, point the barrel up and they fall into my hand. I've also run about 100 rounds through it without clips and all it takes to empty the cylinder is point the barrel up and give it a bit of a shake.

 

[ttolliver]

No arguments about used often being just fine if you're shopping in the right places and have developed some judgment on what to look out for. I'm right there on other hobbies, just not this one quite yet.


Stainz -- I'm liking it just fine No issues with the serrated trigger yet, but shooting almost all SA target work.

I just finished loading another 200 rounds of 200gr SWC last night. All in new R-P AR brass. And with Federal primers since I tossed a Bang spring in first thing. Even with Federal primers I found I'd get 1 or 2 FTF per hundred with the 6 lb DA pull I had dialed in. I inched it up a bit each of the last two cleanings. I'm probably at the Bang recommended 7 lbs at this point.

My first batch was loaded at the Speer #14 starting charge and was so slow they tore more paper than they punched. That was 4.5gr of 231. Comparing to the other manuals, it turns out the Speer starting charges are well under other published starting loads. 5.5gr on the next batch did the trick nicely.

I'll get some .45 ACP onto the loading bench soon and check out shooting with moonclips.

The one thing I am surprised at is how dirty the thing is after a shooting session.

 

[Tyrod]

As an aside, for the folks over 50 years of age. In 2005 at the age of 51, I decided to get rid of the gasses I've worn since childhood. Not the exact same glasses as I would get new ones every 2 years. I got the Lasik Surery with Wavefront Technology. Hot fudge holey moley, I see better than I ever did with glasses. Got rid of my bad astigmatisms (very expensive glasses). I still need to wear reading glasses for up close work. That's just because at age the human eye loses the abilty to focus near and far. My eyes come into sharp focus without glasses about midway between my elbow and wrist with my arm extended in front of me.

Needless to say my new 20-10 vision has tighened up my groups a tad. Yes, it expensive, but the improvement is amazing. It's better than having 19 year old eyes.

 

[NE450No2]

I was strongly considering buying one of the new 45ACP revolvers until I attended a recent Vintage Handgun Match. A gentleman of my acquaintence is a fantastic shot and he bought a gun that should have been beaten every other gun at the match. That gun was a 5" S&W 45ACP, essentially a copy of the Model 1917 revolver. He was using full moon clips with the same ammo he uses in his 1911. He was using a full moon clip tool to load his clips, which were not fitting into chambers easily and was fumbling when it came time to load. Perhaps this is the reason the military used half moon clips. During firing, his bullets jumped out of cases during recoil jamming the gun, evidently due to insufficient crimp. After this happened twice, he was given fresh factory ammo by the rangemaster. Even then he was fumbling with full moon clips and the gun was disqualified from the match, at which point he was loaned a 1911 to finish the match. If that is the sort of experience the military had with 45ACP revolvers, it is no wonder the military dumped them. The majority of guns on the line were S&W 10s which had no failures whatsoever. The winning gun was a S&W 10.

I would have to say that his problems were Operator error.

I shot PPC with a 38 Special for several years. I carried a S&W 44 Mag for a Duty Gun for several years, I used speed loaders for both. However, I also used a S&W Mod 25-2 as a work gun and in IPSC matches for several years and I can reload the Mod 25 in 45 ACP way faster than a "regular" revolver with speed loaders.

IMHO no revolver loads faster than a 45 ACP with full moon clips.

 

[Dale53]

The most enjoyable revolvers I have ever owned are the 625-8 JM Special (4" barrel) and my 625-6 Model of 1989 with 5" barrel. Here is the JM:

Here's the Model of 1989:

I am now a "Certified Old Fart" with vision problems and my Red Dot Sights have "put me back in the game".

Dale53

 

[AzShooter]

You made a great choice in the 625. You can download it and shoot it forever with no problems for pain. Accuracy is real good in mine. I do shoot competition and shoot 230 grain cast bullet but I load for about 600 fps

That makes a great Minor load for ICORE and USPSA shooting where you shoot targets from 3 yards to 35 yards. Slow and accurate beats fast and sloppy.

The serrated trigger will let you keep you finger on the same spot and help in accurate and fast shooting. For single action it just helps you keep your finger in the same spot. Again for accuacy.

Look at ICORE.ORG to fine a club near you and try them out. You will be happy. Good bunch of guys and gals at the matches all having fun.

 

[Stainz]

Nothing reloads faster than moonclipped 230gr FMJ's in my 625JM. On the other end of the speed spectrum... my moon clipped 8-shot 627's!

Check your 625JM's ejector star - it should be 'eased' on the entry side, a feature, at least of the early, 625JM's. I have noted quite a slow-down when loading moonclipped 255gr LSWC's, actually very close to full wadcutters with that big flat 'nose', and comparing them to the tractor beam-like entry of round nose ammo.

As to nastiness when shooting, that seemed a feature nine years ago, when I started reloading .45 ACP's for my first 4" 625-8, of HP-38/Win 231. I switched to Titegroup in my .45 Colts for my 625MG so chambered, due to it's case volume/position insensitivity. An added plus, which caused my general use - including .45 ACP - to switch to Titegroup, was the lessened fouling. It was characterized by a light grey muzzle coat that easily wiped away with even tp! I like 230gr FMJ's over 4.5 gr Titegroup in Starline brass with Fed primers - yields ~800 fps.

Stainz

PS I aided the rapidity of loading moonclipped ammo by adding a re-sizing/factory crimp Lee die to the fourth hole in my Dillon 550. It really helps with lead rounds!

 

[one eye joe]

I would have to say that his problems were Operator error.

I shot PPC with a 38 Special for several years. I carried a S&W 44 Mag for a Duty Gun for several years, I used speed loaders for both. However, I also used a S&W Mod 25-2 as a work gun and in IPSC matches for several years and I can reload the Mod 25 in 45 ACP way faster than a "regular" revolver with speed loaders.

IMHO no revolver loads faster than a 45 ACP with full moon clips.

I MUST AGREE. Sounds like operator error to me also. Reloads are slicker than snail snot in my unmodified 625-3 Model of 1989, using RIMZ moonclips....