Caveat emptor-the batfe will be paying you a visit

[MagnumM56]

I have heard from at least two gun dealers that the BATFE -when doing compliance checks are removing and copying The dealers Aquisition and Disposition Books and the 4473's (one actually removing the 4473's completely from the dealer's premesis)-absolutely verboten w/o a court order. After copying the A&D and 4473's investigators with no law enforcement officer credentials are showing up at the Dealer's customers' homes and demanding/requesting that the firearm be shown to them.

As far as I know we still have search and seizure Laws in this country-the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S Constitution-for starters.

If you have purchased a firearm recently-expect a call or a visit-you have the Right to privacy(Fourth Amendment and federal Privacy Act)-be polite but firm to the agent/investigator-no need to escalate or precipitate a confrontation-you have a right not to talk with the agent-you have a right to refuse them access to your home or gun-unless there is a court order or subpoena-

This is a way of" unoficially "registering guns-plain and simple. I cannot give out legal advice on all situations in all States although I am a lawyer here where I live-If you do have a legal question -ask a lawyer-

Please be alert to what The BATFE is up to and be firm in your convictions about private firearms ownership-if these practices continue-we will lose these rights quickly and I see this practice as a major erosion upon our sacred Civil liberties.
Magnum

 

[Hoplophile]

4473s and bound books have always been a de facto registration system. That's why they're now computerizing all "retired" records. Makes it so much easier...

 

[Hunt200]

To late, I live in NY.....................

 

[lagavulin62]

several weeks ago I picked up a transfer from my dealer and he told me when the batf visited they were asking him about various customers. just things like how long have you known this person, how many guns have you sold to them, why do you feel they are buying so much in such a short period etc.....my dealer said he was left with the impression they might start paying visits to gun purchasers to verify that said guns are still in their possession. we probably do need to study up on this. should I start digging that hole in the back of the lot?

 

[Amici]

This is an issue in Texas particularly and Mexican-border states generally, as BATFE dances to Mexico's tune about how the US is arming Mexico's criminals.

Yeah, we provide the drugs, too.......

 

[MagnumM56]

No hole digging and that-we at the forum need to riase hell with the congress-we have good friends there that have the power to do something just look at the Tiahrt Amendment. It limits the use of the records BATFE gets- If we do not raise hell this forum -rotected as it is by the First Amendment and the other Provisions of the bill of rights will be gone because each provision of the bill of rights is like a brick in a wall-pull it out and the wall comes crumbling down-I love my liberties-they are sacred and I just sat around-until I heard from several Gun Dealers that ATFE was doing this-I called the local branch of the ATFE and verified that they were doing this-told them not to bother to come to my place without a court order but that if they wanted to talk with me they could do that-and that is about as far as I will let them go- my private things are just that private-and there is still a fourth amendment to the US constitution-freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures-tell em to go to the man or the woman in the Black Robes and give facts to justify a warrant-they just won't be able to do it-I quote Burke-"Evil flourishes when good men(and women) do nothing"- I for one am not doing nothing anymore and will fight like hell for private firearms ownership and the corresponding principle that a person has a right to privacy-to be left alone

Magnum

 

[M falcon]

What they are concerned with are people who buy severel pistols per month, they are trying to stop straw purcheses, as selling pistols to felons,I read where they have just broken up just such an operation.
M.Falcon

 

[The Rabbi]

The border states with Mexico seem to have a problem with people doing straws and the guns ending up with Mexican gangs. I'd be concerned about that too and would ask questions if I were an agent.
I just finished an audit last month. It went fine. The cited me for numerous and repeated violations and were on their way. They did not ask about specific customers, and many of mine are repeat buyers.

The amount of information on the 4473s and A&Ds is so numerous and it goes out of date so quickly one wonders what the purpose of computerizing it would be.

 

[44forever]

I have often purchased multiple pistols in a month, sometimes on the same 4473. So far I have had no visits from BATFE, sound of knocking on wood. Of course, most of what I buy are older revolvers so they are probably not the sort of thing likely to be attractive to spray-and-pray "gangs" in Mexico or elsewhere. They don't look as cool when you hold them sideways, either.

 

[MagnumM56]

The gunrunning is definitely a concern here on the Border-I hate the cartels-Zetas and Sonoran-and the saint of death that they worship-why BATFE would want to visit with purchasers with CCLs is a mystery to me when they have the fingerprints and details on file-just want private gun ownership to stay private but that will not be possible at the rate we are going.

 

[lagavulin62]

44, pretty much the same with me. with the exception of a few makarovs and one cz all I own are older smith revolvers. I have only purchased one gun with my c&r(chinese model 59 mak) so not much record keeping but I do have all the serial numbers and dates of purchase of all firearms.

last night I re-read the requirements for c&r and I have a few questions that hopefully you guys can help me with.

I understand that I have to document all c&r purchases in the A/D book. I am using a spiral notebook for this purpose as I don't think their is an official booklet for this. is this correct?

In my a/d book I have a copy of the sellers license then I have included date of purchase, serial number, make/model, caliber. is there anything else I need to include?

as I understand it, if I am visited by batf they are only concerned with c&r data? also the booklet says if I choose I have the right to reschedule the inspection at the nearest batf location. so if I allow them to do the inspection as I understand it I am only obligated to show data and the gun for c&r purchases?

one last question, so when someone comes to my door and claims they are from batf I should ask for identification then if they are from any other agency I have the right to request a warrant, if no warrant I have the right to respecfully decline any further contact?

I know these I am asking a lot but just want to be up on this. I don't want to get caught not knowing, because if they can take advantage of us I know they will.

thanks,

mike

 

[jag312]

If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives comes to my house, this is pretty much how the conversation will go:

Hi guys, I haven't seen you in a while. How is everything going? Come on in. Can I get you anything to drink? You want to see my guns? Sure, where do you want to start? This is my favorite gun. It is a Colt Model 1851 Navy. It was made in 1863, engraved by the factory, and it was carried by a Union Army officer during the Civil War. They don't make guns like this anymore. See this one here. It is a Springfield Model 1873, made in 1878, and used in the Indian Wars on the frontier. You want to see modern guns? How about this one? You won't see this one everyday. It is a Smith & Wesson Model 67 revolver. It is a Governor Moonbeam Highway Patrol Special. It looks just like a Model 66, but it is chambered for .38 Special. Moonbeam made the Highway Patrol put away their .357 Magnum revolvers and carry only .38 Specials. He was afraid that if they had to shoot anyone with a .357 Magnum, it would hurt too much. You gotta go? No, stay some time. How about I call for some pizzas. What do you like? If you see any guns you like, let's all go up to the range and do some shooting with them. You can't leave now, I got more guns to show you. What can I get you? I got cold drinks in the fridge. How about this rifle? It is a Browning Model 1886 in .45-70. I got it in 1987. You'll love shooting it. Now look at this one. It is a Winchester Model 1886 Deluxe rifle in .45-90. It was made in 1892. What do you mean, you gotta go? Stay for a couple of hours. I got pizza coming. We're going up to the range. I got more guns to show you. This Winchester Model 1873 was made in 1885 and was owned by a saloon owner in Sacramento. Don't leave just yet. Well, next time you come, plan to stay for a few hours. Gee, they left and drove away.


So, if the Feds ever come to my house, I will smother them with kindness and hospitality. The next time they think of coming to my house, they will think twice, and if they do come, I will have pizza and cold drinks for them. I want them to think they just walked into a party for them. I want them to get the idea that I have nothing to hide, that I am not a criminal, and that I will waste as much of their time as possible.

 

[cass]

I sure couldn't give the gestapo that warm of a welcome !

 

[Amici]

Answer a few questions? Sure. OUTSIDE.

Want to come in? I want to see a warrant.

 

[cmort666]

They get no entry without a warrant.

If they want to talk to me, my lawyer will be present.

I will make them dot every "i" and cross every "t", without exception.

"Trusting" an organization which produced an OFFICIAL training video on how to lie under oath about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system is simply out of the question.

 

[Amici]

They get no entry without a warrant.

If they want to talk to me, my lawyer will be present.

I will make them dot every "i" and cross every "t", without exception.

"Trusting" an organization which produced an OFFICIAL training video on how to lie under oath about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system is simply out of the question.

I saw an Ass't. District Attorney INTERRUPT the cross-examination of a BATFE "special agent" (how can they ALL be "special?") to acknowledge that mendacity is accepted as an investigatory tool. The purpose of the interruption was to, by admitting the tactic, prevent still further admissions of it by the agent being cross-examined.

 

[lagavulin62]

ok thanks for the responses(I guess).

1. for the a/d booklet, can anyone please list the info required?

2. still unclear but am I only responsible for showing documentation to a batfe agent for c&r transactions only? (unless he has a warrant of course)

thanks

 

[The Rabbi]

I would imagine the same info as required by 01ffls: make, model, serial number, caliber, action (rifle/pistol/revolver/shotgun) date acquired, from whom acquired and date disposed of and to whom. But it might be different for C&Rs.
I would guess for the private citizen who isn't a C&R holder ATF has no jurisdiction. They can get local PD to get a warrant if they really think something is up but on their own cannot force entrance or examination. If you are a C&R holder I am unclear on the law but would bet they ahve the power to come in and examine any records and any guns in your possession.

 

[Andy Griffith]

What they are concerned with are people who buy severel pistols per month, they are trying to stop straw purcheses, as selling pistols to felons,I read where they have just broken up just such an operation.
M.Falcon

Ah, you have hit nail on head, however there is another way to look at it.

We are a nation of free people that have a code we live by.
When one violates that code, he becomes a criminal and can no longer honor that "code."

If he can't be "trusted" to follow the "code," why do we let him back out into our population, period?

If you aren't fit to have, own and be trusted with firearm, you aren't fit to exist in a civil population, IMHO.

Simple, lock up or dispose of convicted criminals, and make it easier on the honest people.

However, with our "dogooders" up in Washington, it's likely they'll lock up the honest folks and let the criminals out.

 

[N_itis]

I saw an Ass't. District Attorney INTERRUPT the cross-examination of a BATFE "special agent" (how can they ALL be "special?") to acknowledge that mendacity is accepted as an investigatory tool. The purpose of the interruption was to, by admitting the tactic, prevent still further admissions of it by the agent being cross-examined.

But, a mendacious interviewee is a criminal. Just ask Scooter Libby.

+1 on warrants, attorneys, and Miranda rights. Those are the rules of the game. Best to know them, abide by them, and demand the same of "Johnny Law." The smartest people in the world can "paint themselves into a corner." Do not let it happen to you!

Sorry if I sound adversarial, but government agents showing up at my door demanding information that they are not legally entitled to without due process is adversarial.