CCW prevents Miami robbery...

[RichieRich954]

Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup-
A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.

BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]
An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire. The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''

Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.

 

[RichieRich954]

Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup-
A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.

BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]
An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.

A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire. The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.

The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.

Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.

''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''

Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.

 

[Andy Taylor]

Another one in the "win" column for the good guys. I hope the CCW holder is OK.

 

[flop-shank]

Originally posted by Lucky Derby:
Another one in the "win" column for the good guys. I hope the CCW holder is OK.

+1. Another human coyote bites the dust.

 

[Spotteddog]

Yeah F/S!
I am starting to wonder though, if a set of soft Kevlar wouldn't be in order these days?

 

[flop-shank]

I've been thinking about that myself. That will have to wait for a pick up in the economy though. I'm doing O.K. working only 24 hrs./wk. these days, but I'm not exactly rolling in the dough!

 

[Spotteddog]

I hear ya' F/S!
I've had my mileage pulled, on call pay too, we've got -25% occupancy in our buildings (with several remaining commercial tenants selecting to go month to month after 4-1), and I'm about to select a "furlough month" so our construction guys can stay on the clock.
Sure is the change, I hoped for!

 

[flop-shank]

Don't worry there is still hope.

Well, maybe not much.

 

[John R]

Sounds like a good shoot, hopefully they don't charge the good guy with any crime.
They shouldn't, but we all know how the persecutors think.

That's not a typo, I do mean persecutors.

 

[straightshooter1]

So, John R, just how do the"persecutors" think?

And, what is your basis for whatever you believe?

Bob

 

[S/W - Lifer]

I'm going to be the odd man out on this one.

The BG is stealing Burger King's money. No one has been shot, the BG hasn't killed anyone and the place is apparently crowded. If the BG gave no clear indication he was about to shoot, I'd be inclined to ride it out and let him walk.

Burger King is likely insured and the good guy sustained no loss that I can tell. Now the good guy is shot several times and I wonder who is going to pay his bills. I'll bet Burger King has a legal staff looking at this and law suits may fly. Then there is the view of the state's attorney and law enforcement. I have no idea how this will go. I hope the good guy walks on this but he may spend the rest of his life with one kidney or on a colostomy bag.

There is a fine line between defending one's self in an emergency and taking on the roll of law enforcement officer. I'm all for self defense but I'm not in favor of crossing the line into the world of public enforcement officer.

It all depends what went on at the crime scene and I wasn't there. I do think that most off- duty LEOs caught in that situation would have handled it differently.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Doug M.]

Not a complete victory. While the turd is dead, the citizen is injured, pretty badly. It's always a risk. It is also a risk that a bullet fired by either party could harm an innocent party. The 2 way range does not know who is good, bad, a child, etc.

I'd recommend NOT firing until it really appears to be necessary to protect self or others, as it may well have been here. The $$ ain't worth it. If so, don't "argue" or talk, or anything. You place yourself and others at great risk by doing so. When it is time to shoot - DO SO. If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

We have had a ton of pharmacy robberies here lately, and between my wife and I, they recognize my voice and don't ask my name when I do a refill on the phone.

I have given a lot of thought to such things. If I can get a near contact shot to the ear or something, that beats the hell out of a lot of other options.

 

[epj]

A CCW is not a police officer's badge. That said, I hope the best for the armed citizen who stopped an armed robbery. Perhaps he should have let it slide, so long as no life or limb was endangered. Perhaps not. Locally, an armed citizen recently stopped a bank robbery in which tellers and customers had already been killed and wounded. No question he did the right thing. He even had to get to his car to retreive his gun. Perp is currently awaiting trial. Here is Alabama, he will likely be executed sometime in the next 25 years.

 

[straightshooter1]

Well, since John R is apparently not gonna respond and S/W Lifer posted what (IMO) is an intelligent analysis of the situation and mentioned the view of law enforcement and the State Attorney, let me say:

Florida has always had a common law right of self defense. In fact, we still have a statute that says the common law that was in effect on July 4, 1776 is still in effect except for the penalties (remember felons generally received capital punishment in those days) and unless the common law has been changed by Statute.

In 1974, the current self defense statutes went into effect, in our Chapter 776.

Even before the "Stand Your Ground Law" which took effect in 2005, Chapter 776 said one could use deadly force to prevent the death or great bodily injury of oneself or another or to prevent the commission of a Forcible Felony.

The major impact, with respect to that part of the Statute in 2005's modification, was the deletion of any duty to retreat if one is in one's home, automobile or in a place one has a right to be.

The bad guy was in the act of committing a Forcible Felony (long list of what is a Forcible Felony in 776.08), specifically robbery.

Therefore, this citizen was entitled to use deadly force to prevent this.

END OF STORY, but:

this analysis presumes the facts we know so far are the true facts (I have no reason to doubt that, but....).

and

one is still responsible for each and every bullet that leaves the barrel of one's firearm. So, had the citizen accidently shot a bystander, for example, he MAY have been civilly liable or even criminally liable if he was culpably negligent. The 2005 amendment purports to give one criminal immunity in self defense situations BUT, reading the statute, one sees that a shooter can be arrested IF there is probable cause to believe the use of deadly force in unlawful.

(Funny, I used to think ALL arrests made by Officer Friendly were supposed to be based on Probable Cause).

So, I might not have acted, unless I thought the bad guy was gonna shoot someone, but, legally, I could.

In this case, however, assuming the facts we know now are correct, the shooter is "safe" from the evil LEOs/Prosecutors.

Bob

 

[S/W - Lifer]

Interesting, Bob. I just realized this happened in Florida and I used to be a Florida LEO.

If I had been in BK in plain clothes and this went down, depending on circumstances, my inclination would have been to let the BG continue with his crime uninterupted. As long as he had not fired his weapon, was not attempting to do so or giving a clear indication he intended to do so, I'd let him get clear of the crowded restaurant before engaging.

I don't need a gun battle in a crowded eatery and I don't want a hostage situation, especially with children involved.

There are a number of professional options available in a situation of this type. This was a second-by-second unfolding event with second-by-second responses required. Keeping your head and selecting your best option is impotant, IMHO. The best option may be to remain calm and be non-confrontational.

Perhaps this could have been addressed outside by engaging in a shooting, perhaps not, depending on tactical circumstances. There are other methods that can lead to an arrest at a later time. Sometimes a bit of information passed to the detectives can be enough to close a robbery case in short order.

I do not like Monday morning quarterbacking and I was not present at the scene. I can't say with specificity what my actions would have been in this situation. Based on training, experience and judgement, my inclination would have been to wait for an appropriate moment, based on circumstance, to act.

There would have been no doubt in my mind with respect to my legal authority and professional responsibility.

And I suspect back at the station there would have been an inquiry by both management and peers. If I'd started a shootout with kids around that could have been avoided, the boss would seriously have questioned my judgement. If I let the bum get away I'd have been the joke of the day among the guys. That's just the way it is.

For non-LEO's within the State of Florida, it looks to me like you summed it up nicely. I couldn't ask for better.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Originally posted by S/W - Lifer:
And I suspect back at the station there would have been an inquiry by both management and peers. If I'd started a shootout with kids around that could have been avoided, the boss would seriously have questioned my judgement. If I let the bum get away I'd have been the joke of the day among the guys. That's just the way it is.

Yup. Sums up my feelings on Monday morning quarterbacking.

 

[FennRx]

Originally posted by S/W - Lifer:
I'm going to be the odd man out on this one.

The BG is stealing Burger King's money. No one has been shot, the BG hasn't killed anyone and the place is apparently crowded. If the BG gave no clear indication he was about to shoot, I'd be inclined to ride it out and let him walk.

Burger King is likely insured and the good guy sustained no loss that I can tell. Now the good guy is shot several times and I wonder who is going to pay his bills. I'll bet Burger King has a legal staff looking at this and law suits may fly. Then there is the view of the state's attorney and law enforcement. I have no idea how this will go. I hope the good guy walks on this but he may spend the rest of his life with one kidney or on a colostomy bag.

There is a fine line between defending one's self in an emergency and taking on the roll of law enforcement officer. I'm all for self defense but I'm not in favor of crossing the line into the world of public enforcement officer.

It all depends what went on at the crime scene and I wasn't there. I do think that most off- duty LEOs caught in that situation would have handled it differently.

Just my humble opinion.

my thoughts exactly. of course i wasnt there, but based on my interpretation of the events, i would have let him go. i'm an ok shot (and getting better) but i would be VERY wary about drawing a weapon in a crowded restaurant. even if i got the bad guy, i couldnt live with myself if someone else got hurt.

 

[RichieRich954]

The licensed CCW who shot and killed the robber is doing well. The city never considered charging him, and local LEOs and citizens have called him a hero.