Certain ammo causing 2/3/4 round bursts?

[Tacticious]

Hello all. I bought new ammo this weekend, and first tried it out yesterday. The first shot with this new ammo was a three round burst... I thought it was just the way it echoed, and in fact I DID feel the small jolt of all three rounds, but it was so quick I wasn't able to distinguish for SURE (based on sound) that it was three rounds. I took my clip out, sure enough I had four rounds missing from it (left one in the chamber). So, I did some testing. I shot through about four full magazines initially. Of those magazines, the "fluke" bursts happened from three to five times each magazine. The initial shot almost always was a burst, either of two or three shots, then the following ten shots were about a 50/50 chance of being burst (most bursts being two, some being three, and once I did record a four round). After I burnt through half the clip, I only noticed maybe one shot (if that) actually fire a burst.

Yes, I realize something just "malfunctioning" and causing it to be fully-automatic is pretty far-fetched. I also realize that AMMO being the cause of it probably sounds ridiculous (at least, that is my assumption, it may be more common than I am aware of but judging how all my friends reacted when I told them it seems a bit weird). However, I tried it with Federal Copper Plated Hollow Points and had it happen once out of about 200 rounds, and in fact it didn't "fully" happen. I shot once, and my firing pin was not set back. So, I pulled it back, and the rim of the bullet chambered had a small pin mark on it. So, it did hit two bullets with one pull of the trigger, however, it was a FTF. Before this weekend, I had shot ~1300 rounds through it, all being Federal Copper Plated HPs (none of which ever double-fired on me).

My question is, has anyone noticed this before? I read a forum post before buying this gun. The guy said his gun, after about 1000 rounds, just starting shooting fully automatic. He said he sent it in, and it came back just semi-automatic (of course). Anyway, has anyone ever noticed anything like this with their own rifle (be it an M&P 15-22 or not)?

It almost seems like the firing pin is stuck in the strike position, and upon re-chambering a new bullet, striking it immediately. Which, that in itself seems a bit odd because I shot ~250 rounds of different ammo immediately after shooting this new ammo, and they would not reproduce the same results. Whatever it is, I'm currently not shooting my gun as I'd rather not get in trouble for it. At the moment, I'm trying to determine whether or not to send it in to S&W or if it may be an issue with the firing pin getting "gummed up" (thus just requiring cleaning).

 

[Brett248Vista]

Shooting 3 round burst is considered fully automatic and would be federally illegal for any Rifle made after 1985.

A few others have reported something similar, it sounds to me like the ammo doesn't have enough velocity to properly cycle the bolt which resets the trigger in the process, instead the bolt is short cycling, just enough to chamber successive rounds but not enough for the trigger to go through it's reset.

What ammo was this taking place with? Was it sub-sonic ammo?

 

[BeginingOfTheEnd]

You need to send it to s&w immediatly. Some .22 rds are crap, no dought, but most ammo won't cause multiple rds discharging. It's probably a firearm issue. Nothing but bad things, legally, can come of this if you try to fix it yourself. What'sthe first 4 digits of your SN? Haven't heard of this issue since maybe DTM. Mines DTU7, I think the newest is DTZ from what I've read. But seriously, call s&w and have them send you a shipping lable. Since of late their customer service has been outstanding from what I hear.

 

[Tacticious]

No, in fact it was higher grain... I normally shoot the value pack of Federals (Copper Plated HP, 38 grain I think) which don't normally give me issues. These were just Federal High Velocity Solid Lead, 40 grain. Not much of a difference, which is what shocked me.

I question my rifle, mainly because when I bought it at Cal Ranch, it was supposedly brand new. However, it came with a sling loop on the stock, the barrel was threaded, and had a muzzle brake. At the time, I had no idea these did not come standard on the M&P 15-22. I also didn't think that a huge store, such as Cal Ranch, would sell me something like this (they don't even deal with used guns). I wonder if it was a demo...

 

[BeginingOfTheEnd]

Mines DTU7, muzzle brake, sling loop on stock, brand new. I have only shot federal 525 bulk and have never had multiple rds discharge. Only problems I've had are mag issues, no firearm problems.

 

[Tacticious]

Mines DTU7, muzzle brake, sling loop on stock, brand new. I have only shot federal 525 bulk and have never had multiple rds discharge. Only problems I've had are mag issues, no firearm problems.

After grabbing my gun and checking, it's a DTU8. So, seems logical that it's new with the loop/brake. That's good, I'm glad I wasn't sold a used/demo gun. Well, looks like I'll call S&W.

 

[SharpshooterOPD]

I'm a little unclear regarding your post, but I think I understand that your rifle is a 15-22. If so, it has the same fire-control group as the full-size M&P 15. When this problem crops up in the M&P 15 (AR-15/M-4), the most likely suspect is the disconnector spring. If the disconnector fails to properly hold the hammer until the trigger resets, the exact problem you describe can occur. This is a fairly easy fix, but even so, I would recommend that you send the rifle back to S&W and let them repair it. If for no other reason than to keep the ATF from breathing down your neck.

HRF

 

[melloyello]

Have you tried thoroughly cleaning your rifle and tried that ammo again?

 

[Tacticious]

I'm a little unclear regarding your post, but I think I understand that your rifle is a 15-22. If so, it has the same fire-control group as the full-size M&P 15. When this problem crops up in the M&P 15 (AR-15/M-4), the most likely suspect is the disconnector spring. If the disconnector fails to properly hold the hammer until the trigger resets, the exact problem you describe can occur. This is a fairly easy fix, but even so, I would recommend that you send the rifle back to S&W and let them repair it. If for no other reason than to keep the ATF from breathing down your neck.

HRF

Yeah, it's the M&P 15-22. I did not state that it was the .22 just because it's the .22 specific forum, however, I do understand the confusion. I forgot to post that it was the M&P 15-22

Ahhhh, that explains a lot. Sounds like that is what I'm experiencing. Just out of sheer curiosity, if it fires 2 round bursts is that not considered fully automatic (thus not punishable by law)?

I've not cleaned the gun, I just experienced the issues maybe ten minutes prior to the original post. I'm planning on cleaning it tonight, then maybe firing a few more on the range tomorrow to see if it's fixed. If not, off to S&W. I'm not confident enough to try fixing it myself.

 

[Brett248Vista]

More than 1 round per 1 pull of the trigger is considered "Automatic" by the ATF, the only exception being "Gat Triggers" (Rotary)

 

[BeginingOfTheEnd]

Unfortunatly, if you buy a brand new firearm, and it fires multiple rds with a single trigger pull, by definition it gives the ATF probable cause to charge you if you don't imediatly return the firearm to the manufaturer for repair. I know, we live in America and it couldn't happen to me. I feel the same way. It's like premeditated molestation of the 2nd amendment, but they'll persue it and I've heard to many stories, and seen to many friends, end up in this boat because they were educated gunsmiths/enthusiests trying to fix an obvious problem. Google it and you will see the unfortunate predicaments this kind of problem causes. My recomendation is to bite the bullet, return it, and expect it to come back better than ever.

 

[Tacticious]

Well that's definitely good to know. Anyone know the approximate waiting time? This is the only gun I own and now that I'm addicted, I fear I may go into withdrawals without it...

 

[melloyello]

Pull it apart and clean it. If that doesn't do it then send it back. Could be the bolt isn't cycling completely or the firing pin is sticking. Since it seems to be mainly one type of ammo I would think the bolt isn't cycling correctly.
Now, I don't see a problem w/ going out to try one more magazine after the cleaning just to see if it's fixed. But, everytime you take it out to shoot you are taking a chance at being caught w/ an automatic weapon. In my area it's not really a problem b/c I don't go to a range and rarely is anyone around when I do shoot.
Now, if someone does give you grief over this problem, tell them to disassemble the weapon and show you the evidence of your modifications to the weapon.

 

[bobelk99]

Time to consult with S&W, asap.

 

[turndl1]

It happened to me a couple of weeks ago, but it was only 2 rounds. Then yesterday when I went back to the range, I fired 500-600 rounds and my only problem was with the magazine (7 different times that a round was standing straight up in the magazine). But I agree, clean it then see what happens.

 

[chuck s]

I'm unfamiliar with Certain(brand) ammo. Where you getting this?

Not cleaning the rifle before firing is a red flag.

-- Chuck

 

[jrd1976]

Don't listen to any of the advice about cleaning it, changing a spring or repairing it yourself. The ATF persued someone with an AR-15 that doubled at a firing range where some local cops heard it. He was convicted of having an unlicensed machine gun. Now the guy is in jail because of a rifle that was unaltered; it just malfunctioned with factory ammo and needed some minor repair.

You and your rifle fall into this category. Send it back to S&W and document everything to them about your problem and your legal concerns about possessing this malfuntioning firearm. Keep a copy of everything you send them in case it ever happens again. If it does, insist they replace the gun or give you a refund.

It is time to watch your backside and not form an emotional attachment to a new gun that needs repair, unless you have nothing pressing to do for the next 5-10 years.

 

[chuck s]

David Olofson is currently in prison for an unregistered machine gun. This is a very bizarre case everyone should Google and read about. I was certain it was a hoax. It isn't.

His AR15 rifle apparently was fitted with a M16/M16A1 selector rather than an AR15 part (he claims it came that way) and could be switched to the forward position. This is marked AUTO or BURST on the M16 series and unmarked on the AR15 for the simple reason the AR15 selector won't go there.

Olofson loaned this AR15 to someone and described how to put it in the AUTO/BURST mode which the borrower did and attracted the attention of the police.

Long story. Google it.

Quick lesson, though, is to get any rifle doubling (or burst) back to the manufacturer ASAP. It's my impression that Olofson's failure to do this while retaining a rifle that would act as a machine gun is the crux of this case. All claims of misconduct by the court and AFT aside, Olofson knew the rifle was doing this and explained how to make it burst fire to the person he loaned it to.

Email S&W for a FedEx "call tag." You'll have it in a day or two and the rifle back in a week.

-- Chuck

 

[Brett248Vista]

"It didn't matter the government had repeatedly failed to replicate automatic fire until they replaced the ammunition with a softer primer type. It didn't even matter that the prosecution admitted it was not important to prove the gun would do it again if the test were conducted today," the magazine said. "What mattered was the government's position that none of the above was relevant because '[T]here's no indication it makes any difference under the statute. If you pull the trigger once and it fires more than one round, no matter what the cause it's a machine gun.'

Mr. Olofson was charged with 'Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.'. Not possession, not even Robert Kiernicki was charged with possession (who actually possessed the rifle), though the ATF paid Mr. Kiernicki 'an undisclosed amount of money' to testify against Mr. Olofson at trial," Savage said.


Posted: July 02, 2008
11:30 pm Eastern

© 2010 WorldNetDaily


See the type of group you are dealing with? Don't take any chances.. Send it back to S&W for repair. Call S&W and they will mail you out a call tag either via email or snail mail, send the rifle back in with a nice typed up letter explaining what has happened and tell them to make sure it's repaired and updated to current spec. Turn around time should be a week or so.

 

[melloyello]

This is ridiculous.