Cheating Advice

[SW CQB 45]

I shoot in a LEO circle in a revolver and semi auto 50 round match once a month between April and Oct. its an accuracy match on a B27 target from 5yds back to 25 yds......all point shoulder.

The rules say duty type weapons are to be used.

Through the years I have worked my way up to their high master ranking and in this group are some fellows who like to bend the rules.

One guy I am told will not shoot all his rounds (18) from the 25 yd line to ensure a higher score. He was in the high master ranking this year.

Another one took a PPC 5906 5" and replaced the aristocrat tri rear with aristocrat adjustable (not the tri model) and replaced the front sight.

He shot this gun all year and completely annihilated the competition in high master field.

I shot a Springer Range Officer this year and did decent. My average in semi auto was 493 along with 2 other officers (shooting 1911s). In my opinion, this was good solid competition. However the one shooting the PPC 5906 averaged 497 for the year.

This puts a bad taste in my mouth.

I was about to send the director of this match an email but before I hit the send button, wanted to hear from those who had similiar experiences.

This person is part of the staff who runs this match and it has been told to me in the past by many of the competitors that they want me to beat him. It seems like many come up to me as they dont want to be the whistle blower.

I am not looking to throw a red flag or cause issues and I dont mind him using a tricked out duty type weapon.... as many do. But putting a true competition gun in a class for duty type weapons in my opinion is only ensuring a victory each time.

I know this PPC5906 has a modified trigger pull (meaning not factory SW.....very light) and with the tighter target sights in the right hands....this gun will shoot true.

your advice good or bad is welcomed. if you think the PPC5906 fit the duty type weapon catagory, let me know why.

I am not part of the staffing and they may ask me not to shoot again with them again if I anger some of them, but I want to level the playing field and for all to follow the rules.

thanks in advance

 

[ken158]

You are an LEO - do the right thing and dime out the cheaters... the range master/instructor/officer can then make whatever decision necessary to be sure everyone follows the rules.

 

[kamloops67]

Silly me! I thought shooting competitions were supposed to be fun!

they are for most of us ...some people just gotta win, even if the game becomes secondary
id probably let it slide, then loudly congratulate the runner up as the winner among those with "duty type" weapons, leaving "super shooter" in a class by himself

 

[varmint243]

My advise...
go ahead and beat him anyway

IMO once you start down the path of protesting and that sort of thing it just takes the fun out of it.

Ask him if you can shoot his gun for a round or two and see what it does for your score.

I understand the mild frustration of being up against guys I felt I couldn't beat. I never blamed equipment. Those guys were more focused and practiced more that I was willing or could afford in time or money. I was shooting 597/600 and those guys were shooting 600/600. the difference between a 597 and a 600 is really disproportionate. Those last three points are really hard to get.

 

[RGPM1A]

I agree with Varmint. Just beat him.

I was in a similar situation and practiced my butt off and finally beat the cheater. It was really, really nice to watch the guy's face as I walked away from the line. To this day he won't look me in the eye and everyone else that knew what was going on gave me the thumbs up - in front of him.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I am on the fence.

I dont want to be labeled as a whiner.

I am a shooter and like the challege this match has to offer.

A couple of years ago I shot at a fundraiser match. I shot a 498/500 with my 1911. This particular match you could pay again to better your score in the area of more money for the benefit.

The same guy shooting a 1911 shot 8 times (8 matches) to beat me with a 499/500. He has to win. This cost him well over $200 in ammo just to walk away with the win.

I am going to speak to a competitor tonight who is close to the match director. I feel comfortable talking to him because he has made some comments along the same lines to me.

I think they are all disgusted but no one wants to say it.

I may just dry practice alot in the off season and see what happens next year.

keep the comments coming!!!

 

[o3rugby1]

IMHO the 5906 fits the duty catagorie. He only averages 4 points higher than yourself. I think you can give this guy a good run for his money. I would like to see what your club rules says about this. Keep us posted. As for the guy shooting only 18 of his rounds just bust him after he shoots while emptying.

 

[growr]

A slightly different take would be to have everyone shoot the same guns that would be issued by the agency armorer. That would eliminate the race gun being shot as a duty gun.....

If the course of fire requires 18 rounds on target then make sure the range officer calls it as is...insufficient rounds on target 7...

For me , having been in a similar situation years ago on a smallbore league that a shooter was using a very illegal position in sitting and standing.....so the ultimate was to beat him doing it right and under the watchful eye of the NRA match director....after being beat soundly he never returned.

Randy

 

[VaRecon]

I don't shoot competition but here is my humble opinion.
I can see how it is not fair for him to have a racegun, and therefore how satisfying it would be to win against the odds while he is cheating.
But the odds shouldn't be stacked against anyone.
In a competition based on shooter skill using a gun with an extra variable is putting the odds in his favor, and defeats the purpose of a competition.
It's supposed to be a shooting match, not a David and Goliath story.
If it were a bar-none, anything you can afford, kinda match, shooting with a standard Springer against a tricked out play-toy and winning would seem much more satisfying.
Then again I don't know how these things work, so just keep trying to outshoot him if you want.

 

[crofoot629]

You have some week poo there brother.

You are shooting a decent quality 1911 and you're complaining about the other guys equipment? Weak!

Do the right thing. Load extra rounds in your mags at the 25 yard line and make poor hits on the guy who's holding back. Duh!

Btw, I'm a retired LEO. I was involved in more than one of these shooting on the other guys target for giggles. Usually head shots which counted as a miss.

And buy a .22 conversion so you can practice A LOT!

Emory

------------------------------------------------------------------
Honest Men Fear Neither The Light Nor The Dark

 

[scooter123]

IMO the problem isn't so much "cheating" as it is a rule book that is too loosely defined. For example does your rule book state specifically that only original fixed sights are allowed? I suspect it doesn't because this competitor wouldn't pass tech inspection with his current pistol if it did. Same thing with the trigger pull on his pistol, you state it's "light" but if the trigger weight isn't defined in the rules it is perfectly legal.

Take a look at the IDPA rule book sometime. You'll find that there is a very long list of equipment or modifications that aren't allowed. That happened because IDPA has made a real effort to try and eliminate the type of "gaming" that leads to "race guns". Unfortunately, at the higher level of IDPA competition this type of gaming still takes place, however the "tuning" that takes place is a lot more subtle than it would be if the rules weren't so "tight".

I think that instead of accusing another competitor of "cheating" you instead initiate a movement to put in place a more ironclad definition of what a "Duty Gun" actually is. Something that addresses what sights may are permitted, trigger weight, magazine capacity or load, and specifics in terms of ammunition Power Factor. Point out that one of the benefits of doing this is that it will allow more competitors to shoot for higher rankings. Because to be honest here, allowing unlimited "race guns" into this competition means that the only way to achieve a higher ranking is by spending large sums of money on custom equipment that doesn't bare any resemblance to actual Duty Weapons.

 

[Old cop]

The most telling part of your post was that no one else wants to blow the whistle, but they want you to do it (unless I misread this). Ask yourself "why" before doing anything else. Be careful, you may be getting "set up" here . . .

 

[pfcustom]

I've got to go with Crofoot. Weak argument here. You are shooting a Springfield Range Officer vs a S&W 5906.
Even with a super deluxe trigger job..that you describe a "light." I cannot see how this can even start to compare to the 3-4 lb no creep trigger on the 1911. In addition to the fiber optic front and (basically) Bo-Mar adjustable rear sight. As I recall the Bo-Mars were THE STANDARD sights not that long ago.
Are you using old haji surplus ammo or what???
I'm almost afraid to say, if he is beating you with a 5906, Brother it AIN'T his equipment.

FWIW

 

[SW CQB 45]

Its a PPC 5906 which is not a standard DA/SA.

It is only available to LE when new.

SA only with a custom aristocrat tri rear sight. Match barrel with briley bushing.

It is based off a 5906 frame.

The rules only state duty type weapon with fixed or adjustable sights. Reduced power ammo is allowed.

I agree the rules are too loose. I have decided to address the rules when the time comes.

Thanks to all

these are images of the same model. it is not a duty weapon

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=132lnu2jj&sigi=11sm70ai4&.crumb=fMeYQLR/6Ud
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=131ort5rj&sigi=11snqmjgd&.crumb=fMeYQLR/6Ud
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=132fgbu3q&sigi=11s0aufph&.crumb=fMeYQLR/6Ud

 

[Jim Watson]

One guy I am told will not shoot all his rounds (18) from the 25 yd line to ensure a higher score.

How can somebody save shots to improve his score?
Is he firing extra at shorter range?
Is the scorer not counting the holes? (One big reason to change targets periodically is to eliminate the "one ragged hole" target.)
You "am told". What do you KNOW?

You will not win on the equipment definition.
It will be ignored or you will be marked as a party pooper.

 

[MKT]

How can somebody save shots to improve his score?
Is he firing extra at shorter range?
Is the scorer not counting the holes? (One big reason to change targets periodically is to eliminate the "one ragged hole" target.)
You "am told". What do you KNOW?

You will not win on the equipment definition.
It will be ignored or you will be marked as a party pooper.

What happens is they shoot a nice tight hole up close and the put the "missing" shots between the targets so as not to mess up their nice hole. Kinda hard to score a ragged hole. That is why in PPC we have to change targets between the 7 and 15 yard line so all the holes can be counted (or at least most of the outer holes of the big ragged hole) and remove any temptation.

What you need is a ref to watch and catch those inclined actually throwing shots into the berm.

 

[growr]

That is why several shooting sports use a backer target to prove that you either did or did not fire the required number of rounds. Usually eliminates the question totally.

Randy

 

[Canuck44]

Cheating is cheating and frankly I get tired of folks having to adjust their lives so these *******s can continually get away with it.

Man up! If you are a police officer then I suspect you have no problems enforcing laws that you might not agree with so call this guy out for what he is...a cheater.

I apologise for being so direct but fair is fair. If you get the boot for calling the guy out then what have you lost? Nothing and you will have gained the respect of some if not all of the shooters at the competition. What were you doing before you got involved with this competition? Its not like your family won't eat the next day.

Take Care

Bob

 

[clang444]

Now we know why Internal Affairs was created.

Why not just suggest you split the competition to people who shoot their duty weapons (the one you actually carry) and non-duty weapons. Then let Mr PPC shoot by himself in the non-duty weapon class. He'll come in first, but he will also come in last.

 

[imashooter2]

A 5906 with an Aristocrat rear sight and a match bushing is a duty type weapon with fixed or adjustable sights.

You don't like it? Change the rules. Until then, your fellow competitor is not cheating.