(Close) I Need Selling & Shipping Advice

[Artist007]

Thanks in advance. I have an H&K 9mm VP70Z listed on Gunbroker and it has been bid on and will sell. I mention in the auction that I won't ship it to California, and for the buyer to know the gun laws in his/her area and know if they are legally allowed to buy/own it BEFORE bidding. The high bidder emailed me and said "I will be in Colorado when the auction ends, can you send it there?" I haven't gave him an answer yet. And I don't know where he actually lives yet. Does anyone know if sending it to an FFL in Colorado poses a problem in this case? My FFL guy will be sending it. Do I need to know where the buyer actually lives? Is there anything I need to know about sending to Colorado? What are my obligations in this matter? Thanks again!

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

My take is that if your FFL logs it into his books and ships it to an FFL in Colorado on instructions from the purchaser than it's up to the receiving FFL to make sure it is a valid transfer to the purchaser. In other words the receiving FFL is responsible to ensure HE does it in accordance with law as it is on HIS books when the transfer is made.

How do you know he is from California? How do you know he is not a resident of Colorado?

My second take is that if something for any reason makes you uneasy-don't go through with it.
Problem is the e mail from the guy telling you he will be in Colorado when the auction ends-why would he send that?????
If say the auction ends and the first communication you get is "Where do I send the money and here is my FFL's information" then I would go through the sale without a second thought-you don't know squat about the guy-don't know where he lives, all you care about is getting the money and shipping the gun according to law. If it turns out that he is using a willing FFL in Colorado to circumvent some issue with his home state of California you are none the wiser as you complied with the letter and spirit of the law. Problem is that you have this communication from the guy that indicates something is up. Can you hide behind the FFL to FFL insulation?????? Technically you probably could, but then again a zealous fed may take issue and you will spend a LOT of money on defending yourself.

Your call.

PS: THIS IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE but merely the musing of an internet participant that for all you know isn't a lawyer but in all actuality a plumber who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

PPS: Run it past your FFL and see what HE says! (Probably should have just said this in the first place and been done with it! )

 

[Doug627]

You are always given the address of the buyer when your firearm is sold. Check it to see if he lives in California or Colorado. If California, contact Gunbroker and have the auction canceled and your firearm relisted.

 

[Artist007]

Thanks for the input, guys. My stating in the auction that I won't ship to California doesn't have to do with him necessarily, it's just what I had stated beforehand in the auction. I don't know where he lives. He is not the actual buyer yet, he is merely the high bidder. So far, the only info I can access about him through Gunbroker is his seller/buyer feedback. I'll try to get more clarity on the situation. I believe CAJUNLAWYER is right though - I would think my obligation is to ensure I ship from my FFL to a legitimate FFL of his choosing, then it's up to the receiving FFL to make sure the transfers he performs is legal.

 

[Fishinfool]

Artist007 - no legal advice for you, but you do bring up a very good point about Gunbroker. I have sold & bought more than a couple guns on GB, and the only real issue I have had is when someone buys a gun, you ship it, then, for whatever reason, they cannot complete the purchase with their FFL.

Now, you could just tell them its their problem to deal with, but then you risk bad feedback because of the buyer's inability to complete the transaction. I generally just have the buyer ship it back on his dime, but being a private party, and not an FFl, it is a pain in the posterior.

Larry

 

[Artist007]

OK, so I emailed the guy back and in so many words told him he needs to get his ducks in a row and find out from his FFL if however he wants to do the transfer is going to be OK and legal in the event he wins the auction, and then get back to me asap. What bothers me is since he went ahead and bid, I may still have to pay the Gunbroker auction fee even if it turns out I can't send it to him. I specifically mention in my auctions to make sure BEFORE you bid that you are a legal recipient.

 

[Artist007]

Fishinfool, even if he ships it back on his dime, I still paid the Gunbroker their percentage, and may also have to pay a transfer fee to get my own gun back. That would suck.

 

[Doug627]

Just let Gunbroker know an ineligible buyer won the bid. I don't think you will be charged for the sale.

 

[pawngal]

The issue is not whether the "buyer" is from CA. The issue is that he states he will be in Colorado and can it be shipped there. NO, the "buyer" can only receive a handgun from an FFL in their state of residence.

 

[oneounceload]

But a buyer can have more than one state of residence; Federal law says as much. Your residence is where you currently reside. Maybe this individual has a summer home there.

 

[pawngal]

But a buyer can have more than one state of residence; Federal law says as much. Your residence is where you currently reside. Maybe this individual has a summer home there.

The address on the drivers license (or state ID) has to match the residence. A person would have to also have a DL from the alternate state.

 

[Rastoff]

Here is actual legal advice:
A person in the US cannot take possession of a handgun in a state where they are not a resident. If this person does not reside in CO, then you can ship it there, but he can't legally take possession while there.

This is a federal law and applies to all 50 states of the union.

 

[walkinghorse]

[/B]

Cajun, if you are really a plumber perhaps you can help me out. I've got this present drip in my pipe, that I can't get rid of. Do you have any suggestions as to how I can cure this?

Please provide your address, and I will put in an order of antibiotics directly to India or Mexico, as soon as they call me back. They will need your phone number, and possibly a skype conversation so that can verify you are who you say you are. They already have some cajun's plumbers credit card #, so everything is free to you, plus a second supply if you will authorize shipping and handling to the previously mentioned card #.

 

[BigBoy99]

The buyer MUST provide me with a valid FFL (copy of license) and the address on the license is the address used to ship the gun. The gun is shipped to an FFL holder - NEVER shipped to an individual!

 

[Bladeswitcher]

<------ Former FFL.

Here's my take:

1.) Regardless of who buys the gun on Gunbroker, you will actually transfer it to the FFL that the buyer provides, not the buyer. (You only think you're selling the gun to the guy on Gunbroker. You're actually TRANSFERING to the FFL.) Unlicensed individuals don't have to keep A&D records under federal law, but FFLs do. So, let's assume for a moment you decide to have a local FFL ship the gun rather than doing the shipping yourself. Your shipping FFL will NOT show a disposition to your Gunbroker buyer. His A&D book will show a distribution to the receiving FFL (the license provided by the purchaser). As far as the ATF is concerned the Gunbroker member doesn't exist until the receiving FFL transfers the gun to that individual.

So . . . as far as ATF compliance is concerned, it's not your problem . . . so long as you ship the gun to a licensed FFL. It's on that FFL to make sure that the person who bought your gun can actually receive it. Of course, it becomes your problem if and when the GUnbroker guy can't receive the transfer. Things get real complicated when there's a return. In that instance, it behooves you to make sure everything is legit.

2.) THere are a number of ways/reasons a California resident might be able to do a handgun transfer in Colorado. Perhaps he has a home there. Perhaps, he has duty station military orders in one of the states. There are some other possibilities. Again, its up to the transfer FFL to make sure everything is legit. And no, he doesn't need a Colorado drivers license. He can use a combination of his California driver's license (to prove who he is) and a residency document (i.e. a Colorado voter ID card) to prove his Colorado residency. Any good FFL is familiar with the rules.

3.) The funky, get-permission-from-the-California DOJ rules don't apply to private sellers shipping to a California FFL.

 

[pawngal]

<------ Former FFL.

Here's my take:

2.) THere are a number of ways/reasons a California resident might be able to do a handgun transfer in Colorado. Perhaps he has a home there. Perhaps, he has duty station military orders in one of the states. There are some other possibilities. Again, its up to the transfer FFL to make sure everything is legit. And no, he doesn't need a Colorado drivers license. He can use a combination of his California driver's license (to prove who he is) and a residency document (i.e. a Colorado voter ID card) to prove his Colorado residency. Any good FFL is familiar with the rules.

I am a current FFL holder.
When I do a NICS check the agent asks "Does the address given exactly match the address of the provided ID?"
This question has been added in the last 6 months or so.
Not sure what happens if it doesn't.

Also Colorado uses their own state system for the background check. So a Colorado FFL would have to answer that question.
Maybe there is a work around, maybe not.

 

[Muss Muggins]

So you're saying that if you come to the bootheel to take advantage of our heat, humidity, mosquitoes, and random tornadoes this summer that I can't take you to my favorite shooting spot and let you take "possession" of my favorite pistol to shoot? Your favorite shooting range rents firearms, thereby letting people from all over the world take "possession" of a firearm . . .

When you give legal advice, make sure you know the terms of art . . .

Here is actual legal advice:
A person in the US cannot take possession of a handgun in a state where they are not a resident. If this person does not reside in CO, then you can ship it there, but he can't legally take possession while there.

This is a federal law and applies to all 50 states of the union.

 

[Rastoff]

So you're saying that if you come to the bootheel to take advantage of our heat, humidity, mosquitoes, and random tornadoes this summer that I can't take you to my favorite shooting spot and let you take "possession" of my favorite pistol to shoot? Your favorite shooting range rents firearms, thereby letting people from all over the world take "possession" of a firearm . . .

When you give legal advice, make sure you know the terms of art . . .

I'll admit that I don't know a lot of words and how they're used, but in this case I'm exactly correct.

In the legal sense, the phrase "take possession" or "transfer possession" is indicating a transfer of ownership. If you loan me your gun at the range for a few shots, that is not a transfer of ownership. Yes, I would possess the gun by the dictionary definition, but not in the manner possession is being used here.

On the 4473 it uses the term transfer. In your scenario, you would be transferring the gun to me for the few shots I might take, but that's different than the legal transfer of ownership.

Spin it how you want, what I stated is true.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I can give you the name and BOP number, from which you can locate their currrent FCI or USP mailing address, of several hillbillies who are sitting around a stainless steel picnic table complaining about being held accountable for possessing a firearm they didn't own. But I digress. Glad you're still alive. People have been asking . . .

I'll admit that I don't know a lot of words and how they're used, but in this case I'm exactly correct.

In the legal sense, the phrase "take possession" or "transfer possession" is indicating a transfer of ownership. If you loan me your gun at the range for a few shots, that is not a transfer of ownership. Yes, I would possess the gun by the dictionary definition, but not in the manner possession is being used here.

On the 4473 it uses the term transfer. In your scenario, you would be transferring the gun to me for the few shots I might take, but that's different than the legal transfer of ownership.

Spin it how you want, what I stated is true.